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zion national park / Behunin/ now Outside mag.

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by neil wilkinson, Mar 19, 2004.

  1. but I thought the whole idea of the ACA was to guide in the park? For any who may not know the history ... I'm not serious about this, just a ribbing to a delusional minority.

    Neil

    Shane Burrows shane@sisna.com> wrote: >>Actually, the messy dirty tree rappel thing is a good example of sheep syndrome. <<

    Speaking of sheep syndrome....... anyone read the story on Exum Guides in the latest issue of Outside Magazine? Good article, also has a nice spill about the difference between US and Euro guides and guiding........ baaa baaaa baaaa..... read the article and you'll get it.......

    The same rag also has a spill about "Thrill of the Skill". In the article it list's the ACA and how for $265 bones you can sign up for a 3-day course that ends in descent of Mystery Canyon........... HUH?!?!? Article comes complete with a pic of what I believe is Buckskin. I guess all slot canyons look alike to the editors of Outside. har har........

    Shane





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  2. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson <mtngoat59102@y...> wrote: > but I thought the whole idea of the ACA was to guide in the park? For any who may not know the history ... I'm not serious about this, just a ribbing to a delusional minority.
    Neil

    Care to take a vote?

    Brian in SLC
  3. Mostly I just figure the editors of Outside Mag don't have a clue. The way I have it pegged they spend way to much time eating caviar injected chocolate dipped strawberries.

    MMMmmm.... Strawberries...........

    Shane

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "neil wilkinson" mtngoat59102@yahoo.com> To: <Yahoo Canyons Group> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: zion national park / Behunin/ now Outside mag.

    > but I thought the whole idea of the ACA was to guide in the park? For any who may not know the history ... I'm not serious about this, just a ribbing to a delusional minority.
    Neil
    Shane Burrows shane@sisna.com> wrote:
    >Actually, the messy dirty tree rappel thing is a good example of sheep > syndrome. <<
    Speaking of sheep syndrome....... anyone read the story on Exum Guides in > the latest issue of Outside Magazine? Good article, also has a nice spill > about the difference between US and Euro guides and guiding........ baaa > baaaa baaaa..... read the article and you'll get it.......
    The same rag also has a spill about "Thrill of the Skill". In the article > it list's the ACA and how for $265 bones you can sign up for a 3-day course > that ends in descent of Mystery Canyon........... HUH?!?!? Article comes > complete with a pic of what I believe is Buckskin. I guess all slot canyons > look alike to the editors of Outside. har har........
    Shane


    > > Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam


    > When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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  4. W. B.

    W. B. Guest

    on 3/19/04 10:15 AM, neil wilkinson at mtngoat59102@yahoo.com wrote:

    > but I thought the whole idea of the ACA was to guide in the park? For any who > may not know the history ... I'm not serious about this, just a ribbing to a > delusional minority.
    Neil

    Well, there's some 600-ish people signed up for this board. I can't speak for how many were there when the person behind the ACA said in 2001 he didn't think that guiding in Zion was controversial and that the ACA was not against guiding in Zion but since I was there I can attest that there wasn't 600 people there when I heard him say it. Would make it a "minority" all right. Then he moved to Utah just outside of Zion and refused to give up guiding. Connect the dots. Not proof, but not delusional to see the links.

    Delusional, well I don't think you were there. Kinda interesting, you calling people delusional when you weren't there to hear what was said. I don't recall you on the lawn of the Bit'n'Spur.

    Even today the ACA"s position statement on guiding reads:

    6. Guides should never hoard permits that would prevent, restrict or limit access to recreational canyoneers. Guides should avoid operating in popular areas where permits are issued on a limited basis.

    Got no teeth though. The way I read it guides belonging to the ACA should not try to operate in Zion at all since it is such a crowded place. But try to get a clear statement about that out of the American Canyoneering (Guides) Association. The efforts to guide commercially at Zion continue. Money talks, all those of us who oppose this effort can do is try to protest to the Park and elsewhere.

    Can't really blame Rich, he wants to do the ACA training thing and commercial guides won't go for being shut out of business in places by an organization he wants them to be certified by. It's just business really, first rule is to make a profit. That means knowing who your real customers are. Rich knows. If I'm wrong, prove me so by putting real teeth in the position statement above. Prohibit guides from taking spaces from ordinary citizens. No commercial guiding in crowded and permit-limited areas. Make that a position statement. I'd figure it would be wildly popular among the majority of canyoneers. Except for guides, where it would sink like a rope in a pothole. AC(g)A.

    One of the reasons I don't really oppose the limits in Zion is that it is a perfect reason to not allow commercial guiding there. If the canyons are already crowded - why would we want more people and more guides in there than we have already?

    -Bill
  5. Stevee B

    Stevee B Guest


    but I thought the whole idea of the ACA was to guide in the park? For any who
    may not know the history ... I'm not serious about this, just a ribbing to a
    delusional minority.


    You're right.


    Neil
    Well, there's some 600-ish people signed up for this board.

    700+

    > I can't speak > for how many were there when the person behind the ACA said in 2001 he > didn't think that guiding in Zion was controversial and that the ACA was not > against guiding in Zion but since I was there I can attest that there wasn't > 600 people there when I heard him say it.

    Red Herring. Doesn't speak to Neil's comment that ACA is not ALL about guiding in Zion. Not shaking the "delusional" label well.

    > Would make it a "minority" all > right. Then he moved to Utah just outside of Zion and refused to give up > guiding. Connect the dots. Not proof, but not delusional to see the links.
    Delusional, well I don't think you were there. Kinda interesting, you > calling people delusional when you weren't there to hear what was said. I > don't recall you on the lawn of the Bit'n'Spur.

    Perhaps you weren't really "there" either.


    Even today the ACA"s position statement on guiding reads:
    6. Guides should never hoard permits that would prevent, restrict or limit > access to recreational canyoneers. Guides should avoid operating in popular > areas where permits are issued on a limited basis.
    Got no teeth though. The way I read it guides belonging to the ACA should > not try to operate in Zion at all since it is such a crowded place. But try > to get a clear statement about that out of the American Canyoneering > (Guides) Association. The efforts to guide commercially at Zion continue. > Money talks, all those of us who oppose this effort can do is try to protest > to the Park and elsewhere.

    Still doesn't prove (or even cast suspicion) that the ACA's primary focus is to promote guiding in Zion.


    Can't really blame Rich, he wants to do the ACA training thing and > commercial guides won't go for being shut out of business in places by an > organization he wants them to be certified by. It's just business really, > first rule is to make a profit. That means knowing who your real customers > are. Rich knows. If I'm wrong, prove me so by putting real teeth in the > position statement above. Prohibit guides from taking spaces from ordinary > citizens. No commercial guiding in crowded and permit-limited areas. Make > that a position statement. I'd figure it would be wildly popular among the > majority of canyoneers. Except for guides, where it would sink like a rope > in a pothole. AC(g)A.

    The guy wants to eat food and put a roof over his head like everyone else. Why the need to persecute?

    -Stevee B, Non-ACA member, Non-guide, and Non-pro-Rich Carlson (though I think he's got a cool helmet).
  6. You mean a vote among the canyoneering 'click' or the silent majority? Just curious, it might effect the results.

    Neil

    beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson <mtngoat59102@y...> wrote: > but I thought the whole idea of the ACA was to guide in the park? For any who may not know the history ... I'm not serious about this, just a ribbing to a delusional minority.
    Neil

    Care to take a vote?

    Brian in SLC



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

    This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save Changes&amp;amp;quot;.



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