Send us a suggestion!

News Zinke won't eliminate any monuments.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Taylor, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. Canyonero

    Canyonero

    Messages:
    580
    Likes:
    615
    Worse, it was my wife reliving her childhood!
  2. Canyonero

    Canyonero

    Messages:
    580
    Likes:
    615
    A true believer! Seriously though, I hope solar works out as well as you hope. What we really need is a breakthrough in battery technology.
  3. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

    Messages:
    952
    Likes:
    814
    OK; I understand fully. The way of the warrior doesn't stand a chance against the way of the wife!
    Rapterman likes this.
  4. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

    Messages:
    1,488
    Likes:
    1,637
    Location:
    Utah

    The breakthroughs in battery technology exist, but are prohibitively expensive.

    I had a friend in Virginia who was an electrical engineer and worked for the defense department in the pentagon. He told me that they have developed batteries that would outlive you in an LED flashlight. Imagine having to NEVER replace the batteries in your headlamp. We're talking 10,000 hr+ batteries. The problem is that no one I know wants to pay 6 figures for a headlamp.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Rapterman likes this.
  5. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

    Messages:
    905
    Likes:
    525
    Location:
    Colorado
    I suspect that the truth lies in the middle in this argument- shades of gray instead of black & white. For people I know, the designation definitely has put Bears Ears on the radar for many people. I started visiting this area in the early 1990's long before it was on a lot of people radars that it is now.

    I've been watching the polarization of this country through social media (well, all media, actually) for years. I think I am noticing a pattern of one side taking a ridiculous stance on any given issue. People with common sense may be shocked by this stance and reflexively flock to the opposite extreme, thereby passing up the moderate ground in the middle.
    Canyonero and Rapterman like this.
  6. Rapterman

    Rapterman

    Messages:
    853
    Likes:
    1,169
    The latest (Tesla) electric cars have a range of 300 miles.
    A new battery start up in California is already producing high energy density batteries
    which they claim will enable nearly twice the range as the Tesla, at a much lower price.
    Now that there is overwhelming demand for batteries the tech race is on to build better and cheaper ones.
    If this development curve is any thing like computer chips there will (soon) be no reason to buy an ICE vehicle.
    The electric will be cheaper, safer, lower maintenance, longer range, and vastly out-perform internal combustion engine vehicles.
    :D
    Deagol likes this.
  7. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

    Messages:
    905
    Likes:
    525
    Location:
    Colorado
    I read the NYT article and many of the comments. This one from a lady who grew up in Utah and has a lot of courage to say what many won't:

    "I was born and raised in Utah, and it's no secret there is a prevailing attitude of using up the land in my home state. It all stems comes from an outdated belief system that promotes distrust of the federal government, and supports the idea that the land belongs to only a few and not all. I know this because my own ancestors were told that the land in Utah was given to them by God for them to use when they first settled the state. And my family's culture has been fighting the federal government over just about everything ever since.
    So now with Mike Noel we see a find example of this antiquated attitude, which has led many rural Utahns to believe that their "heritage" is tied up with squeezing the land for the most money possible. Despite the economic boom of tourism, they'd rather continue on their well-worn path of despising both the federal government and the outside world, while making the most of what's "theirs." This is engrained in the culture of rural Utah, and it's sad to see this attitude now dictating the fate of our public lands. The state of Utah has never been a responsible steward of its public lands, why would it start now?"
    Rapterman likes this.
  8. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

    Messages:
    905
    Likes:
    525
    Location:
    Colorado
    another one:

    Speaking as a resident of Escalante, Utah, a sixth-generation Utahn, a descendant of Mormons, the daughter of a Utah rancher, the grand-daughter of a Utah sheepherder AND an environmentalist, I am tired of the generalities put forth in these articles (environmentalists on one side; native Utahns on the other). Cattle grazing is every bit as destructive to this landscape as mining. The time has come to stop clinging to lifestyles that were inappropriate for this landscape to begin with and can no longer be supported by limited resources. Leave the monuments in place and, more importantly, fund them appropriately to give them the protection they deserve.
    Rapterman likes this.
  9. Rapterman

    Rapterman

    Messages:
    853
    Likes:
    1,169
    Deagol
    Liking your post NOT to disparage any group, but to salute the courage of this woman for speaking up.
    As a descendant of South Dakota cattle ranchers I understand that those who have lived on the land for generations
    have a different perspective than many 'city folk' who come to visit and play in the outdoors.
    Sad thing is, with increasing population the 'great outdoors' is becoming an ever more limited resource.
    Tom Collins, Dave Melton and Deagol like this.
  10. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

    Messages:
    441
    Likes:
    601
    Location:
    Woodland Hills, UT
    I've never understood that attitude of some Mormons that this land is ours so we can do whatever we want with it. As a Mormon myself I've always believed that while yes this land is ours we are supposed to be good stewards of the land and take care of it. Our ancestors may not have known about the long term impacts of some of their choices, but we do have the resources to educate ourselves and so have a moral obligation to do so and preserve the land for future generations.
  11. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

    Messages:
    952
    Likes:
    814
    Apparently a lot of them did. Brigham Young was one of the country's first environmentalist:

    http://www.mormonmatters.org/2009/02/25/brigham-young-prophet-pioneer-radical-environmentalist/

    He was also in favor of public lands, more than any politician today. He was completely against mining unless for heating or metals that you can make plowing equipment out of.
    Dan Ransom likes this.
  12. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

    Messages:
    752
    Likes:
    777
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    Ram and Dan Ransom like this.
  13. Canyonero

    Canyonero

    Messages:
    580
    Likes:
    615
    The real problem for electric is their opponent is so strong. I mean, gasoline is an EXCELLENT store of energy. Liquid, portable, dense, cheap (not necessarily counting externalities), reliable, versatile, cleans up easily. It's a freaking wonder-fuel.

    What's so bad about it? Well, oil is a renewable, but it takes a long, long time. Oil spills are kind of bad, but the solution to pollution is dilution. The only real downside is that pesky global warming thing.
    Rapterman likes this.
  14. Rapterman

    Rapterman

    Messages:
    853
    Likes:
    1,169
    Thanks for the bump, Canyonero :)
    Regardless of how one views the environmental (and political) impacts of internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicular transport,
    Electric vehicles will soon out number them. Because electric power trains are MORE powerful.
    The link is a tesla out running a half million dollar 'super' car.
    When the upgraded family sedan (tesla model 3 starting at $35,000) can do this why would ANY car buff by an ICE car?


    Oh- and the electrics get a lot better mileage....
    :D
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  15. Rapterman

    Rapterman

    Messages:
    853
    Likes:
    1,169
    Enough of the 'snow flake car'.
    Not getting to the canyons fast enough?
    What about a UTV that out-accelerates a super car?
    Made in Utah :cool:

    https://nikolamotor.com/zero
  16. townsend

    townsend

    Messages:
    350
    Likes:
    336
    Location:
    Plano, TX
    Is this one of those "externalities"? -- Chevron oil pollution in Ecuador:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    None of this cleans up easily -- Chevron left Ecuador decades ago and the polluted jungle and waterways are still polluted.


    Another externality -- tar sands in Canada:
    [​IMG]
    Ram and Rapterman like this.
  17. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

    Messages:
    952
    Likes:
    814
    Oil doesn't dilute. It doesn't mix with water at all.
    Ram, Rapterman and townsend like this.
  18. Rapterman

    Rapterman

    Messages:
    853
    Likes:
    1,169
    Even with record setting storms raging (and fires burning across the west) there will be those who will not acknowledge that we
    have any responsibility for it.
    Fortunately, we do not have to 'win' this argument to change behavior.
    When renewable energy sources are cheaper than fossil fuels
    and when electric transport is faster, safer, cheaper than gas
    then change happens.
    And that change has already begun
    :)
    townsend likes this.
  19. Canyonero

    Canyonero

    Messages:
    580
    Likes:
    615
    Okay, where's the oil that was on the beaches of prince william sound? Where's the oil that spilled in the Gulf of Mexico? You think they picked it all up? I've got news for you, it got diluted into the rest of the world. If "dilute" isn't technically correct, then substitute "spread out until nobody notices it."
  20. Canyonero

    Canyonero

    Messages:
    580
    Likes:
    615
    Yup, those are what economists call "externalities."