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News Zinke won't eliminate any monuments.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Taylor, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. Taylor

    Taylor

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  2. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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  3. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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  4. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    Disgusting.
    From my perspective (60 years old)
    The development /exploitation of the west since I was young has been pretty traumatic.
    There is not much un-trampled country left.
    Imagine at this rate what it will be like 100 years from now if we do not start protecting some of it.
    Deagol and townsend like this.
  5. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    I don't know. It was public land before the designation. It was public land after. It'll be public land again. The most delicate parts will now be in a monument. I think the worst thing that came out of all this was the publicity the place got. It was practically unknown before and now I can't even get a permit to go backpacking there. It's not quite Zion, but maybe it will be in 10 years.

    I'm not sure calling something a monument instead of BLM land does all that much to really protect it when the area is so huge and the staff are so few.
    Sandstone Addiction likes this.
  6. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    It was practically unknown before and now I can't even get a permit to go backpacking there.

    Cedar Mesa was practically unknown? It has some of the most popular hikes in Utah, including before the designation.

    A lot of areas have gotten really popular without any monument designation. For example, I'd say usage in places like the San Rafael Swell has actually increased much more than say, the increase after Grand Staircase Escalante NM was designated.
    Dan Ransom likes this.
  7. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Have you been there since the monument designation and all the press? It's nuts compared to before.
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  8. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Yes I have. In April even, which is the most popular month to go there. We even got a permit for the Moon House-on a weekend.

    The same can be said for the San Rafael Swell, North Wash, and even Robbers Roost, all of which are much, much more popular than they were not that long ago.
  9. Dan Ransom

    Dan Ransom Staff Member

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    No, it's not. It's a lot of the same. User days all across the Colorado Plateau have been increasing for years - has more to do with the internet, social media, and general availability of information. Jump on instagram and watch a couple people take photos of a particular place, and it becomes a pilgrimage. Hot springs, viewpoints, ruins, etc... Sure Bears Ears is gaining in popularity, but it's also huge. And most of it's destinations require real work to get to, so it keeps the crowds somewhat dispersed.
  10. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    By development / exploitation I am referring to things like oil / gas wells, mines, etc.
    Increased visitation is probably inevitable. These other uses are not.
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  11. townsend

    townsend

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    I understand that it can be frustrating not being able to get a permit, or for there being a long wait before you are granted a permit. But consider the alternative. Zinke (or something other bureaucrat, who has been bought and paid for by the lumber, mining, or fossil fuel industries) eliminates the number of national monuments, or reduces the size of the existing national monuments.

    Do you think that then it might even be harder to get backcountry permits -- same or increasing public demand, but fewer places left that are indeed "back country"? People need to wake up. The gulf between public policy and public opinion is HUGE. E.g., most Americans would like a universal healthcare coverage (like Medicare). And look at the reality: neither of the major political parties will consider it, and not only that, they won't even allow the topic to be publicly discussed, or be debated. I know this firsthand, b/c I have patients who can't even afford their medications. Even many generic medications have skyrocketed in price. It's a shame . . .

    Same goes for our public lands.

    We may have beat them off this time, but they are going to come again, and again, and again. Just ask the Sierra club, Great Old Broads for Wilderness, The Nature Conservancy, and the other groups that are defending remnants of American wilderness.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
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  12. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Interesting. I was there last on a weekday in March this year. We got beat out for Fish Canyon permits despite waiting in line 15 minutes before they even opened. Moon house? Not a chance that day. The staff were telling us that ever since it hit the news it's been tough to get anything and they're basically swamped. They all wish it wouldn't have been made a monument. And these are this areas biggest advocates.

    I think it's important on these topics to take a moderate stance. If someone doesn't drill somewhere, you can't drive your car to the canyon. Doesn't mean you need to dig a well in Grand Gulch, but it isn't the end of the world to have an oil rig here and there. And I say that as someone who walked the oil covered beaches of Prince William Sound as a kid. Unless you're living off the grid with solar panels and a Volt, you need a better solution than "don't drill anywhere." And importing all our oil has had its own consequences in my life (like spending half a year at a time in a very sandy location that would have zero importance to our country if it wasn't sitting on massive oil reserves.) So I welcome a revision of borders of the monument. Take a careful look at it, figure out where the most precious areas are, lock those up with massive protections and enough resources to actually protect them, and responsibly and thoughtfully decide what to do with the rest. I'm all for keeping it public land, but that doesn't mean every inch of it needs the same level of protection as Zion Canyon.

    Disagree? Your post should be accompanied by a picture of your trailer, panels, and Volt.
    Sandstone Addiction likes this.
  13. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    We got a permit for Moonhouse on April 2. We just walked in and got one the day before. Maybe spring breakers were there the same time you were?

    If you couldn't get a permit for Fish Creek, why not get one for somewhere else? I serioisly doubt all backpacking permitd were taken. Also, you can reserve permits in advance. This system had been in place for years, not just since the monument was created.

    As far as drilling, few people want to eliminate drilling completely, but the arguments on where to drill are endless.
  14. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Oh, we did. We went off to a little visited part of the Gulch. It was fine and we knew it could happen, but it wasn't our desired itinerary. That was snapped up by a guy who was camping out to get the "day of" permits. Just like happens in Zion. For Fish Creek. Which as I understand, is a far cry from Mystery Canyon.

    The main issue I have with calling something a National Park, particularly in Utah, is it then becomes this destination for people from all over the world. It's like a right of passage to ride up Zion Canyon in a bus, wait in line to get through the tunnel, and go spend half a day in Bryce. People from Georgia who have never been West of the Mississippi put this on their bucket list. People come from Thailand to drive that road in Arches.

    Just reinforces my habit of NOT publicizing places that are special to me. Wish everyone else would do the same. It just concentrates tourists. Try climbing Mt. Fuji sometime. Same problem. And all of a sudden you're on a trail with thousands of other people. There must be other hiking trails in Japan, but you wouldn't know it from climbing Mt. Fuji.
  15. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    So, you are complaining about people coming to our country and add to the tourist crowds, and yet you go another country's tourist attraction and add to their crowds?

    PS, if Fish Creek permits were snatched up by someone getting a day of permit, why didn't you just get a permit the day before? They are available a day in advance. Why didn't you just get an online permit? It sounds like some piss pour planning on your part. The permit system has been in place for years and long before the Monument designation. You should have known better. You are at fault here, not the Monument.
    Rapterman likes this.
  16. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Yes, that's exactly what I'm complaining about. Not my choice to climb Fuji, BTW. I would have preferred exploring somewhere else, but I wasn't in charge of planning.

    At any rate, all the advance permits were taken when we planned the trip. So I guess if "piss poor planning" is not planning the trip months in advance, then yes, we were piss poor planners. Luckily there are still places you can go in Southern Utah with less than 3 months notice. But if we make the entire Southern half of the state into National Parks and Monuments, that may not be the case for long.
  17. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    It must have been terrible that you were forced to climb Mt Fuji against your will. Since guns are hard to obtain did they the use knives or samurai swords to force you? ;)

    Anyway, I first visited Fish Creek in the very early 1980's. There were no permits then. It's people like you taking the permits; I was there first. Someone older than me could say the same thing to me. Remember that when it comes down to it, you really aren't fighting the crowd, you are the crowd.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
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  18. bnwilso

    bnwilso

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    I agree completely Canyonero. It would have been much better and more widely accepted if Grand Staircase and Bears Ears designations as national monuments would have been reasonable in scope from the start instead of the massive overkill that they are. It sounds like we are headed in a direction that will protect only the kinds of areas originally intended by the antiquities act instead of stretching the law to accommodate a political agenda.

    I especially like your comment on staffing. With so much land to manage and so few people to do it what happens is over time the access is purposely contracted to match staff levels (and or political agendas). Anyone who was familiar with Grand Staircase access roads before the monument designation compared to access roads today will understand that. Many of the roads no longer exist by design and access to many areas that our community of canyoneers and hikers would enjoy without causing any real damage to the environment are now overly difficult to get to.

    I do disagree with the idea that the monument designation increases tourism. In the short term with all the national publicity I'm sure it has bumped up considerably. But in the long run that will die out and there aren't many people traveling the country for the purpose of seeing national monuments. The big crowds are touring the national parks which are well known and promoted as tourist destinations. Monuments don't really get any significant promotion and because of the road access problems I mention above they are not tourist friendly places to visit - here in Utah they end up being more like playgrounds for hardy day hikers, backpackers and canyoneers only. I cringe every time I hear a supporter of Grand Staircase attempt to make the argument that tourism created by the monument designation has been an economic boom for the surrounding areas. No doubt tourism is up in the last twenty years but it has absolutely nothing to do with the designation and everything to do with the fact that there are places like Coyote Gulch, Spooky and Peekaboo, etc in the area that are more widely known through beta sites and social media than before the designation. Most people who go there don't even know it is a monument or what that might mean.
    Sandstone Addiction likes this.
  19. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    We have the electric car.
    It's amazing! Looking forward to an electric SUV.
    State of Nevada and the power utility are still sorting out the net metering debacle.
    Then the panels go onto our shop roof.
    When we finally get around to building a house it will have solar tiles on the roof
    And a power wall (high capacity battery storage for night time).
    All of this stuff is getting cheaper and now pays for itself over time (and saves you money!)
    There is presently a world wide GLUT of oil and gas.
    That is why the prices have stayed so low.
    There is no need to sacrifice any more outdoor wonders on the altar of fossil fuel.
    We have, collectively reached peak oil CONSUMPTION.
    Every major car manufacturer is now in a race to produce electric vehicles.
    I predict that the electrification of transport will substantially decrease demand for oil within the next 10 years.
    :)
  20. AW~

    AW~

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    This^ Zinke verifies the REI collective and reaffirms Obama's legacy.

    Im surprised the all-knowing experts on this forum didnt mention Tooke's recent appointment as Forest Service chief.
    After all, it was celebrated by the collective. You cant make this stuff up on the buffoonery of the outdoor tourism industry.
    Lets go over this again : They celebrate Trump appointee to Forest Service....it gets even better.
    Tooke approved the Atlantic Pipeline! You got that right...the Wilderness Society lauds appointment of natural gas pipeline advocate.
    Tooke being an Obama ''establishment' lackey.

    If this sounds confusing, let me clear it up for you with their spin: Tooke approves "anti-coal" pipeline. By developing national forests for a natural gas pipeline, coal is not allowed to triumph and the battle for climate change notches a win. Southern Californians arent surprised because the 'environmentalists' are going to dig through our "monument" for a train. Excuse me...not just any train, but one that fights against global warming....and has union jobs. Same as the Atlantic pipeline.

    Oh, they didnt tell you that monuments allow "public" exploitation, aka green energy? It would be very positive to put solar up in Bear Ears to stop climate change.