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Why not the EDK in webbing?

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Canyonero, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    I'm sure there is a good reason that the water knot is always recommended over the overhand bend (i.e. Euro Death Knot i.e. EDK) for webbing. Can anyone tell me what it is? Because the EDK is a heckuva lot faster and easier to tie and I use it all the time with rope.
  2. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    For one, there is more strength lost with an overhand vs a bend or water type knot.
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  3. wsbpress

    wsbpress

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    Rapterman likes this.
  4. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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  5. Mike

    Mike epic blarneys

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    Wow great write up, simple and easy to understand (my favorite). Always hated edk's in webbing, see it a lot.
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  6. John Styrnol

    John Styrnol

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    Yeah, I've seen it out there, as well.
  7. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    1400 lbs vs 2000 lbs huh. Seems an argument that it's okay to use, rather than an argument against it! (Be sure to leave enough tail for a roll or two of course.)
  8. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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  9. skeeter

    skeeter A holed piston is just an ashtray

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    I've seen this a lot lately. Good information to provide the lazy.
  10. MrAdam

    MrAdam

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    But why use an EDK when a water knot takes a few extra seconds to tie and is proven stronger?
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  11. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Why not use an 11 mm rope instead of an 8 mm rope? It's only a few ounces heavier. :)

    It's about "good enough" versus "massive overkill."

    I assure you sandtraps won't hold 1400 pounds most of the time. Cairns, deadmans, meat anchors, that piece of sandstone the sling is wrapped around etc etc etc. Most rappel anchors don't need to hold bodyweight with careful loading. 7X bodyweight is probably still PLENTY.

    A few extra seconds here and there add up over the course of the day and sometimes speed is safety. Consider the relative speeds of the two groups in Keyhole the day it flashed.

    But really, I just kind of hate tying water knots. Always have. Never seem to get any faster at it.
  12. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    Practice.
    And, some people will be better and faster at some tasks in a canyon than others.
    If speed is a big concern, perhaps you should not rig.
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  13. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    I like the fact that Rich correctly uses the word "hypothesis" instead of the often misused word "theory" to describe what they thought would happen before conducting their experiment.
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  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Canyonero: perhaps you should work on your knot-tying proficiency. Practice practice practice.

    The problem in Keyhole was not the slow pace of their knot-tying.

    I am usually an advocate of eliminating unnecessary overkill, but...

    We have one data point that shows that the EDK is a crazy-weak not in webbing. I have never seen a test report that showed a knot having less than 50% strength. One data point is one data point, and generalizing from that is not a good idea... but I can generalize from that one data point that there is good reason to suspect that the EDK in webbing is a very poor choice of knot.

    We had an accident in Moab that could have been because of a low-force failure of this particular knot. This one data point, to me, adds to the suspicion that this was the cause of that accident. (Pool-Arch Canyon?)

    An analogy to generalizing based on one data point: My cousin's ex-girlfriends boyfriend used apricot-pit extract to treat his pancreatic cancer - and it worked! So I'm going to a Mexican clinic to treat mine, rather than what my money-grubbing US doctor recommends!!!

    Tom
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  15. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    I have never seen an EDK tied in webbing at any of the anchors I have come across. I don't think I would want to use it if I did. That would be a red-flag that the anchor should be re-done IMO.
  16. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Yeah, all true. Other components may be weaker. As such, justifying lowering another component would seem to add more risk. Not lessen it.

    Commitment toward excellence, rather than just good enough I'm sure we all strive for in all aspects of life. Thus, I would suggest it is more about gaining and putting to use best practice habits.
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  17. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    To quote Tom from an earlier post on what type of webbing to use for anchors in canyons:
    "However, the Average Joe canyoneer is not in a position to judge which styles are suitable and which styles are not. 1" Tubular webbing is inexpensive and widely available, and is THE STANDARD."
    Since the Water Knot is the accepted standard for canyon rigging, EDKs in webbing make the anchor 'junk' for the next group behind you- they will have to remove and/or re-rig, slowing them down.
    All webbing eventually deteriorates in the canyon.
    Using a weaker knot would require webbing be replaced much more often.
    From a community perspective the EDK is a disadvantage.
    A water knot can be a hassle to tie, especially with cold wet fingers.
    If someone comes up with a better solution without compromising safety that everyone can enjoy then I am with you.
    Dave Melton likes this.
  18. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    as long as you start it with enough tail, I don't think Water Knots are very hard to tie at all (also, they are easy to tighten).. especially when you consider what's at stake. It seems crazy to me to talking about safety as the underlying preface and then try to justify that with tying a lesser knot to save 30 seconds.
    gajslk, Rapterman and Rick Demarest like this.
  19. Rick Demarest

    Rick Demarest

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    It actually saves about 10 seconds. Without really practicing lately, I tied an EDK in 4 seconds and a water knot in 14 seconds. That would get me to Oscars about a minute sooner. Could be worth it on a busy night.
  20. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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