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Was Snow - Now Packrafts

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by carpeybiggs, Dec 12, 2009.

  1. carpeybiggs

    carpeybiggs Guest

    wow. that's light! probably work well for the big deep colorado. some rocks would end that party pretty damn fast methinks. what are you doing for floatation in case of emergency? one of those things loses air, it could get ugly on that river pretty fast. can you orally inflate while on it, what kind of valve is it?

    so am i reading this right, you are hand paddling basically?

    love to hear about the handmade raft, sounds impressive. alpacka does have a super lightweight one, weighs like 3 pounds or something.. only $600! https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail
  2. tj_wetherell

    tj_wetherell Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "carpeybiggs" <carpeybiggs@...> wrote:
    wow. that's light! probably work well for the big deep colorado. some rocks would end that party pretty damn fast methinks.

    We actually talked to Alpacka while they were developing their ultra-lightweight boat (The Scout), I know they weren't able to price it as low as we would have liked, but it is a small cottage industry (and a great company).

    The Sevylor is a valid option for flatwater, like the non rapid sections of the Colorado, but heavily laden with canyoneering gear it is exciting! Stopping to bail the boat and portaging anything significant is another downside. The standard paddles are a big liability, and I chose to get the 36oz Splat 4 piece paddle, The blades fit perfectly in the Heaps pack, and I removed the suspension to get back some of the weight. An Alpacka can also be partially inflated and carefully used as a sleeping pad (so can the sevylor, but with *great* care).

    Bottom line (aside from the cost): how much is 1.5lbs worth to you? If the consequences of dumping are a long cold swim, and a damaged boat could mean an epic hike thrashing down the banks of the river... You get my point. The economics of the situation are valid though - just treat the the Sevylor Trailboat like an egg...

    Here's a pic Todd took of me on the Colorado: http://tinyurl.com/y8ncgnv Notice the proportion of pack to person to raft, and the proximity of the waterline to the top of the boat.

    -tom(w)
  3. rich_rudow

    rich_rudow Guest

    Tom, I was just checking out the Alpacka website. They got the weight down on the Scout more than I thought. They are also now promoting it for canyoneering :) And they are emphasizing weight in much of the copy. They seemed to have listened - good on em'! I'm tempted to buy one to play with. They also have a new ultra light paddle. Combined weight of the Scout and the new paddle is a respectable 4 pounds 10oz. But it is still 14 oz heavier than my sevylor kit and 26 oz heavier than the kit with Aaron's home made raft.

    Here's the Grand Canyon challenge. If you believe a raft can fundamentally take Grand Canyon abuse, then the next most important specification is weight. I would pay Alpacka's price any day of the week if they could beat the weight of the sevylor and I would pay more if they could beat the weight of Aaron's boat. As you know, the hiking is just too hard to carry one more ounce than you have too. Every exit is 3,000 to 6,000 vertical and many of exits are completely off trail.

    So far, Todd and I have done 20 pack raft exits in Grand Canyon covering about 100 river miles. At least a dozen other people have joined us with their own sevylors from time to time too and not a single sevylor has failed. A very impressive track record with real empirical data.

    A friend of mine is a GCNP ranger and he has two Alpackas. He still takes a lot of water over the tubes. He resorted to an Alpaka spray skirt (and more weight) to solve the bath tub effect. He recently descended a canyon with us and tried a sevylor and then tried Aaron's boat. He sold one Alpacka and bought two sevylors! He would have bought Aaron's boat if another one existed. If the boat can fundamentally survive Grand Canyon, nothing else matters more than weight.

    From a safety point of view, any pack raft can flip in the huge Colorado river eddy fences or in the rapids. And if you flip the odds are high that you're going to lose the boat OR your pack. We recommend people grab the pack and let the other pack rafters go for the wayward boat. So the risk of raft failure doesn't matter as much as people think. The risk of raft "loss" is high no matter what boat you have. You need to plan to be in the 48 F river no matter what (wetsuit, PFD, helmet). I'm surprised to see that the Scout is 9 inches narrower than the sevylor and 4 inches shorter. It's probably more maneuverable with a kayak paddle but might it tip easier too? If you flip and lose your boat, or your boat fails, commercial and private raft trips come along a few times a day in the Winter and more often in the Summer providing a rescue opportunity. Just don't ever lose your pack :)

    Of course, the rules are entirely different in other places and a bomber boat could be the over riding criteria, especially if you don't expect anyone else to eventually happen along.

    Rich

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "tj_wetherell" <tj_wetherell@...> wrote:
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "carpeybiggs" <carpeybiggs@> wrote:

    wow. that's light! probably work well for the big deep colorado. some rocks would end that party pretty damn fast methinks.
    We actually talked to Alpacka while they were developing their ultra-lightweight boat (The Scout), I know they weren't able to price it as low as we would have liked, but it is a small cottage industry (and a great company).
    The Sevylor is a valid option for flatwater, like the non rapid sections of the Colorado, but heavily laden with canyoneering gear it is exciting! Stopping to bail the boat and portaging anything significant is another downside. The standard paddles are a big liability, and I chose to get the 36oz Splat 4 piece paddle, The blades fit perfectly in the Heaps pack, and I removed the suspension to get back some of the weight. An Alpacka can also be partially inflated and carefully used as a sleeping pad (so can the sevylor, but with *great* care).
    Bottom line (aside from the cost): how much is 1.5lbs worth to you? If the consequences of dumping are a long cold swim, and a damaged boat could mean an epic hike thrashing down the banks of the river... You get my point. The economics of the situation are valid though - just treat the the Sevylor Trailboat like an egg...
    Here's a pic Todd took of me on the Colorado: > http://tinyurl.com/y8ncgnv
    Notice the proportion of pack to person to raft, and the proximity of the waterline to the top of the boat.
    -tom(w) >
  4. j b

    j b Guest

    Thanks for all of the observations--worth thinking about. Although in my particular case a pound or two isn't as critical, as I'm probably not man enough to handle many 6000 ft exit hikes no matter how much I'm carrying. But the price difference is sure striking.

    Jeff



    ________________________________ From: rich_rudow rich_rudow@trimble.com>
  5. max

    max Guest

    you folks think duckie/alpacka type crafts are the best option for floating the escalante? what about a canoe? i'm sure that a hardbody kayak would do it as well, but that doesn't leave much room for gear. what are your thoughts on pickups in good ol' lake foul? ie: how much current-less flatwater would have to be paddled before a medium sized powerboat could pick you up?

    schemin' on spring, max schultz

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "carpeybiggs" <carpeybiggs@...> wrote:
    wow. that's light! probably work well for the big deep colorado. some rocks would end that party pretty damn fast methinks. what are you doing for floatation in case of emergency? one of those things loses air, it could get ugly on that river pretty fast. can you orally inflate while on it, what kind of valve is it?
    so am i reading this right, you are hand paddling basically?
    love to hear about the handmade raft, sounds impressive. alpacka does have a super lightweight one, weighs like 3 pounds or something.. only $600! <a href="https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail">https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail</a
  6. There are countless right angle river flows into a cliff situations on the Escalante where a longer rigid craft could be difficult to control/maneuver. There are also several very tight consecutive right angle turns with 3-5 foot drops, again a short stable forgiving craft is a good thing. In 1998 with perhaps 200 cfs we had multiple flips in my group(all rafts) more big water than inexperience Pete

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Dec 13, 2009, at 5:58 PM, "max" mx_schultz@yahoo.com> wrote:

    you folks think duckie/alpacka type crafts are the best option for floating the escalante? what about a canoe? i'm sure that a hardbody kayak would do it as well, but that doesn't leave much room for gear. what are your thoughts on pickups in good ol' lake foul? ie: how much current-less flatwater would have to be paddled before a medium sized powerboat could pick you up?

    schemin' on spring, max schultz

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "carpeybiggs" <carpeybiggs@...> wrote:
    wow. that's light! probably work well for the big deep colorado. some rocks would end that party pretty damn fast methinks. what are you doing for floatation in case of emergency? one of those things loses air, it could get ugly on that river pretty fast. can you orally inflate while on it, what kind of valve is it?
    so am i reading this right, you are hand paddling basically?
    love to hear about the handmade raft, sounds impressive. alpacka does have a super lightweight one, weighs like 3 pounds or something.. only $600! <a href="https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail">https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail</a
  7. Regarding pickup: there are literally miles of river below Coyote gulch where the river is flowing very wide and shallow through the "delta" of the Escalante nearly down to Explorer canyon. Current lake level is 3631 so today you would have 70 vertical feet to drop, the reservoir is predicted to drop 15-25 feet by mayish when it will rise again so it is a very long drag down where pickup could occur. Be a man-carry 100&#43;lbs up crack in the wall in the afternoon sun! Pete

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Dec 13, 2009, at 5:58 PM, "max" mx_schultz@yahoo.com> wrote:

    you folks think duckie/alpacka type crafts are the best option for floating the escalante? what about a canoe? i'm sure that a hardbody kayak would do it as well, but that doesn't leave much room for gear. what are your thoughts on pickups in good ol' lake foul? ie: how much current-less flatwater would have to be paddled before a medium sized powerboat could pick you up?

    schemin' on spring, max schultz

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "carpeybiggs" <carpeybiggs@...> wrote:
    wow. that's light! probably work well for the big deep colorado. some rocks would end that party pretty damn fast methinks. what are you doing for floatation in case of emergency? one of those things loses air, it could get ugly on that river pretty fast. can you orally inflate while on it, what kind of valve is it?
    so am i reading this right, you are hand paddling basically?
    love to hear about the handmade raft, sounds impressive. alpacka does have a super lightweight one, weighs like 3 pounds or something.. only $600! <a href="https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail">https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/index.cfm?ProductID=126&do=detail</a
  8. tj_wetherell

    tj_wetherell Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:
    Tom, I was just checking out the Alpacka website. They got the weight down on the Scout more than I thought...>

    They did very well without sacrificing durability/quality which is their focus (IMHO).

    <...But it is still 14 oz heavier than my sevylor kit and 26 oz heavier than the kit with Aaron's home made raft>

    I can't argue with the weight difference. An Alpacka and Splat weigh in at 6.2lbs, significantly more than the Sevy, or AarRaft(tm). The tradeoff for that weight is versatility. If you just want a boat for flat water canyoneering exits, then it is hard to argue with the Sevylor. If you want to do whitewater or creekboating then an Alpacka (or equivalent) is warranted.

    > So far, Todd and I have done 20 pack raft exits in Grand Canyon covering about 100 river miles. At least a dozen other people have joined us with their own sevylors from time to time too and not a single sevylor has failed. A very impressive track record with real empirical data.>

    I would answer that (at least) I was extremely careful during our trip with the Sevylor. I treated it like an Egg. Floating on the river isn't hard on the boat - its the hard, sharp, and pokey stuff - aka an accident which everyone has been careful to avoid. When you aren't running more than a riffle....

    I agree that the Sevy has a great price/performance/weight ratio and the combo is very attractive for the flat water. But, if you are talking about a shallow trip like the Escalante, with lots of opportunity for damage I don't think the Sevy is the best option (imagine the possibility of repairing your boat 1x per day?)

    I'm amazed that on your G.C. Trips you haven't tried putting your backpack in a big drybag, wearing a drysuit, an floating the sucka!

    The good news is that if you buy an Alpacka, you can pretty much afford to have a Sevylor too. They are often available for free (or small cost plus shipping) on the Alpacka classified forum....

    -tom(w)
  9. roadtripry

    roadtripry Guest

    I am hoping Brandt chimes in here.

    A few years ago, when thinking of floating the Dirty Devil, he gave me some info on a simple tube boat he made out of 2 car inner tubes for floating small desert rivers. I believe he had done the Dirty Devil and Escalante on it?

    I went so far as gathering materials and getting one ready, but backed off out of fear of it not working on such a long trip. (10 day, 80 mile float) A super cheap way to go though, and it would be easy and cheap to carry an extra tube or two in case of trouble.

    I thought it was a great solution, and hope to actually try a river on one next year. Basically 2 inner-tubes with a small wooden deck on top. Not much space, but it looked workable if you just needed to carry a large backpack with gear. I think he recommended a pole for steering instead of a paddle.

    -Ryan
  10. gbrandthart

    gbrandthart Guest

    Ok I'll take the bait, though I haven't been following this thread too closely. Kinda long but since I just wrote most of this to Dan sideband, a cut and paste job...

    I've never used either the Sevlyor or Alpacka - but I think the Sevlyor pack boats are junk, every accout I hear of they puncture and tear easy, but they are cheap. The Alpacka boats are nice from what I've seen of them in person both on the water and in their shop, but $$$.

    On the Escalante just hike out Crack-in-the-Wall. It's not that bad and if you think about it ahead of time and don't bring everything in the world, one trip up is all that is needed. Below Coyote (and even a few miles above) the river is screwed up and unless you are fortunate to have a lot of water floating far enough down at current low reservoir levels to get picked up could be not very fun.

    I have floated the Escalante before, maybe ten years ago, April of 2000?. Due to lower water than we wished for we put in at Fence Canyon and packed up through Crack-in-the-Wall to Forty Mile TH. That trip was only four days long. Better would be to start at the Highway bridge as the Russian olive trees above the hwy have made that section pretty much unrunnable according to those who have tried, once you get to around Fence Canyon the Russian Olive has been eradicated from there down so they are not an issue. Seldom is there enough water, search the group archives for complicated snowpack advice. Most of the water comes from Deer Creek and Boulder Creek, not the Escalante. Sadly, the USGS abandoned both gauges they once had on those two creeks. Fall can actually be a good time too. I've crossed the Escalante many times during various Octobers and I recall there was more than enough water to float on. When they stop irrigating in Boulder that brings the flows back up, cooler shorter days though.

    When there is enough water to float on the Escalante can be busy. Currently there are no permits. The boating season also coinsides with peak backpacking season. I'm pretty sure the BLM recommends boaters not camp at the mouths of side canyons and I have to agree with that, leave those for the folks who hiked in. Maybe we can preserve the permitless system with thoughtful consideration toward others and the land.

    As Ryan mentiond, for boats we went cheap. Two black vehicle innertubes with some lumber (2x2s and some plywood), a crazy creek type chair, and a bamboo pole to push off of things with. In those days I worked as a ski patroller in the winter so I/we had access to heavy duty bamboo. But these boats are not for every river nor every person. There is no way I would ever use them to cross the Colorado in say Marble Canyon or anywhere else.

    Here is a special photo album I put together for Dan focusing on the boat design. I know that the larger the tube diameter the better. They do make black "Recreational Tubes" that are larger. The boat made of the bright tubes in the photos, those are waterskiing tubes.

    http://picasaweb.google.com/bluffbrandt/EscalanteRiverTrip?authkey=Gv1sRgCMTdm_yRqrLOdw#

    I've tried using tube boats on the Dirty Devil once before and thankfully aborted the trip while still within sight of the cars. Another Dirty Devil attempt I made in duckies and was not as smart and spent some time, a few days? packing stuff up the Upper or lower Sand Slide and retrieving the cars. Both attempts there just was not enough water at ~100 cfs. I'd say to even think about the Dirty Devil you'd need ~150 cfs on the Poison Springs gage. The first miles are the worst, shallow and wide, hedge bets and hike in at Angel Trail?

    For the Dirty Devil I'm not sure how much the new low head diversion dam just up river from Hanksville on the Fremont will affect the future of running this great desert river. I fear the worst.

    My $0.02

    Brandt



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "roadtripry" <roadtripryan@...> wrote:

    I am hoping Brandt chimes in here.
    A few years ago, when thinking of floating the Dirty Devil, he gave me some info on a simple tube boat he made out of 2 car inner tubes for floating small desert rivers. I believe he had done the Dirty Devil and Escalante on it?
  11. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, gbrandthart gbrandthart@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > I've never used either the Sevlyor or Alpacka - but I think the Sevlyor pack boats are junk, every accout I hear of they puncture and tear easy, but they are cheap.

    Except the accounts recently posted here by (perhaps) some of the most experienced Sevlyor whitewater users ever! :)
  12. j b

    j b Guest

    Brandt, did you have to portage often? The tube boats like kind of neat. But one of the things that looks great about the alpackas is that a portage around most any kind of obstacle appears instant and trivial--step out, don pack with raft attached, walk, step back in.

    Jeff



    ________________________________ From: gbrandthart gbrandthart@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 8:50:52 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Was Snow - Now Packrafts



    As Ryan mentiond, for boats we went cheap. Two black vehicle innertubes with some lumber (2x2s and some plywood), a crazy creek type chair, and a bamboo pole to push off of things with. In those days I worked as a ski patroller in the winter so I/we had access to heavy duty bamboo. But these boats are not for every river nor every person. There is no way I would ever use them to cross the Colorado in say Marble Canyon or anywhere else.
  13. restrac2000

    restrac2000 Guest

    Don't need much sturdier for the Grand evidently:

    http://www.rrfw.org/RaftingGrandCanyon/Image:The_Death_Star_Duplex_1981.jpg

    Phillip



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "gbrandthart" <gbrandthart@...> wrote:
    > Here is a special photo album I put together for Dan focusing on the boat design. I know that the larger the tube diameter the better. They do make black "Recreational Tubes" that are larger. The boat made of the bright tubes in the photos, those are waterskiing tubes.
    http://picasaweb.google.com/bluffbrandt/EscalanteRiverTrip?authkey=Gv1sRgCMTdm_yRqrLOdw#
    > I've tried using tube boats on the Dirty Devil once before and thankfully aborted the trip while still within sight of the cars. Another Dirty Devil attempt I made in duckies and was not as smart and spent some time, a few days? packing stuff up the Upper or lower Sand Slide and retrieving the cars. Both attempts there just was not enough water at ~100 cfs. I'd say to even think about the Dirty Devil you'd need ~150 cfs on the Poison Springs gage. The first miles are the worst, shallow and wide, hedge bets and hike in at Angel Trail? >
  14. restrac2000

    restrac2000 Guest

    Seems both boats work in different contexts. The Alpackas seem to be expedition boats that earn their extra weight over the course of multiple days/weeks/months of rugged terrain. From other forums I have read they actually perform well in most low-medium water rapids (they are running class V in them in Alaska) and excel in technical terrain. Heck, type in "Alpacka" and "roll" and there a series of new videos teaching folks how to use them like standard hard shell kayaks.

    The Sevlyor seems great for what Rich and most folks are using them for: short uses to float between objectives. They seem more stable on large volume rivers. They are lighter for packing out vertically and there aren't as many nasty rocks in the Grand. Cheap also, so you don't need Alpacka's ridiculously forgiving warranty.

    Different tools is some ways....

    Phillip

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon <onkaluna@...> wrote:
    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, gbrandthart <gbrandthart@...> wrote:
    > I've never used either the Sevlyor or Alpacka - but I think the Sevlyor pack boats are junk, every accout I hear of they puncture and tear easy, but they are cheap.
    Except the accounts recently posted here by (perhaps) some of the most > experienced Sevlyor whitewater users ever! :) >
  15. rich_rudow

    rich_rudow Guest

    Hank, if I recall, I believe you actually hold the record as the most experienced pack raft "swimmer" on the mighty Colorado. Fortunately, your recovery skills are well honed :)

    Every time I'm on the river I flash back to your flip in Horn Creek. THAT was something! A first class recovery to boot. I feel much better about my chances of surviving a flip after watching you :)

    Rich

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon <onkaluna@...> wrote:
    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, gbrandthart <gbrandthart@...> wrote:
    > I've never used either the Sevlyor or Alpacka - but I think the Sevlyor pack boats are junk, every accout I hear of they puncture and tear easy, but they are cheap.
    Except the accounts recently posted here by (perhaps) some of the most > experienced Sevlyor whitewater users ever! :) >
  16. restrac2000

    restrac2000 Guest

    Horn...holy crap...video or photos?

    Phillip

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:
    Hank, if I recall, I believe you actually hold the record as the most experienced pack raft "swimmer" on the mighty Colorado. Fortunately, your recovery skills are well honed :)
    Every time I'm on the river I flash back to your flip in Horn Creek. THAT was something! A first class recovery to boot. I feel much better about my chances of surviving a flip after watching you :)
    Rich >
  17. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning, No-one you see, flips harder than he, And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder, Flipping there-under, holding his pee!



    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:47 PM, rich_rudow rich_rudow@trimble.com> wrote:


    > Hank, if I recall, I believe you actually hold the record as the most > experienced pack raft "swimmer" on the mighty Colorado. Fortunately, your > recovery skills are well honed :)
    Every time I'm on the river I flash back to your flip in Horn Creek. THAT > was something! A first class recovery to boot. I feel much better about my > chances of surviving a flip after watching you :)
    Rich
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <canyons%40yahoogroups.com>, hank moon > <onkaluna@...> wrote:

    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, gbrandthart <gbrandthart@...> wrote:

    > I've never used either the Sevlyor or Alpacka - but I think the Sevlyor > pack boats are junk, every accout I hear of they puncture and tear easy, but > they are cheap.

    Except the accounts recently posted here by (perhaps) some of the most
    experienced Sevlyor whitewater users ever! :)

    >
  18. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    Thankee, Rich

    The honor is perhaps dubious, but I'll take it. :)



    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 12:47 PM, rich_rudow rich_rudow@trimble.com> wrote:


    > Hank, if I recall, I believe you actually hold the record as the most > experienced pack raft "swimmer" on the mighty Colorado. Fortunately, your > recovery skills are well honed :)
    Every time I'm on the river I flash back to your flip in Horn Creek. THAT > was something! A first class recovery to boot. I feel much better about my > chances of surviving a flip after watching you :)
    Rich
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <canyons%40yahoogroups.com>, hank moon > <onkaluna@...> wrote:

    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 8:50 AM, gbrandthart <gbrandthart@...> wrote:

    > I've never used either the Sevlyor or Alpacka - but I think the Sevlyor > pack boats are junk, every accout I hear of they puncture and tear easy, but > they are cheap.

    Except the accounts recently posted here by (perhaps) some of the most
    experienced Sevlyor whitewater users ever! :)

    >
  19. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    Phillip

    Sorry, but you'll have to be satisfied with a description in fabulous

    >>> TEXT - O - RAMA <<<

    Having watched Rich nimbly skip around the "horn", I was pretty sure I was gonna flip. Paddle paddle paddle... Seemed to take forever to move a few feet into the current, but WHooooooSH! just like the end of clack-clack on a rollercoaster, I was in the current with the horn coming up a lot faster than I could have imagined.

    >BOING<

    I bounced off the horn and still felt semi stable, but not for long as the current grabbed me again and hurled me back into the horn, this time, none too squarely. Riding the left rail of the raft, I flailed around the side of the horn, paddling madly to stay atop the silly little toy. Nope - SPLOOSH! Then doing some underwater surfing for awhile and back to the surface with raft in hand. But the pack was about 30' behind me in an eddy. Crap! Next time gotta focus on the the pack...trying to hold both is goofy.

    After a few minutes of awkward one-armed swimming, I managed to exit the current and recover the pack. Whew!



    On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 1:29 PM, restrac2000 Happyfeet00@hotmail.com>wrote:


    > Horn...holy crap...video or photos?
    Phillip
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <canyons%40yahoogroups.com>, "rich_rudow" > <rich_rudow@...> wrote:

    Hank, if I recall, I believe you actually hold the record as the most > experienced pack raft "swimmer" on the mighty Colorado. Fortunately, your > recovery skills are well honed :)

    Every time I'm on the river I flash back to your flip in Horn Creek. THAT > was something! A first class recovery to boot. I feel much better about my > chances of surviving a flip after watching you :)

    Rich

    >
  20. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    p.s .

    Phillip

    We bypassed the burly part of Horn Rapid, so not as epic as you may have imagined. :)

    hank

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