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valdotain

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by jjim9922@aol.com, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. I've never heard about the valdotain not being used on dry ropes. I've used it many times on dry ropes and it's always worked perfectly.

    Am I missing something?

    Jim Wright







    -----Original Message----- From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: canyons <Yahoo Canyons Group> Sent: Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: [from Canyons Group] In the name of safety... (Re: NPS Report on Death in Subway)





    Valdotain.

    Can be used when the rope is wet. It is not generally considered a valid option in dry conditions.

    And, you really, really want to have it well practiced, well-understood before stepping over the edge!

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickpratt905" <rpratt@...> wrote:
    What about the valdotan (sp?) a length of rope with some strands removed that can be rapped around the rope prussic like and descended? I was taught this trick some time ago and tested it out a few years ago in a practice session. Seemed reasonable enough though I am myself a 7 year beginner and have much to learn. I tend to travel with one but it occurs to me that it would be very easy to make in the field though having tested the one you use probably makes sense.
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:

    Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this incident fits into the "even people who know what they are doing can get themselves in trouble" category, rather than that other.

    Yeah, not much to do from above. You did a lower-and-rappel, right? Which seems to be the simplest/easiest way to deal with that. Your friend was not comfortable with his rappel device tied off? This seems to be the point of departure from strict sanity.

    Yes, down-jugging is pretty much the only way to get down to him. Very slow, very dangerous.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@> wrote:


    To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He's not a beginner, though he hadn't gone canyoneering in several months.


    Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the 'safety' was a bad idea on both of our parts.



    > But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die.


    I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him.
  2. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    Classic VT made w/nylon climbing rope can melt through when descending dry

    On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:28 AM, jjim9922@aol.com> wrote: > I've never heard about the valdotain not being used on dry ropes. I've > used it many times on dry ropes and it's always worked perfectly.
  3. charlybldr

    charlybldr Guest

    Hank is correct. Nylon on nylon, under tension, creates enough heat to melt the nylon VT.

    Unloaded, a nylon VT will slide down the rope just fine. So in that respect I could see it `working perfectly'. When used as a self-belay, it would only have to catch, so might not melt through. But if the nylon VT slides down the main line under tension, for any distance at all, it most assuredly will melt.

    We originally made our VT's out of an old dynamic rope minus two core strands and used them primarily as a way to descend a rope under tension (rescue) in Class C canyons. Wet rope, wet VT = no melt. Nowadays, the Technora VT allows this use in dry conditions. I would still be very slow and deliberate during the descent in any case.

    My favorite use of the VT is for passing knots (not something we do a lot of canyoning). It is easy, quick and secure. And, you don't slide down the rope far enough to melt the VT. Technora VT's makes this even easier.

    We have also been using the Technora VT as the primary rope grab in a gang-on MA haul system for rescue with excellent results. Surprisingly, it acts as a load limiter in the event of accidental dynamic loading.





    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon <onkaluna@...> wrote:
    Classic VT made w/nylon climbing rope can melt through when descending dry
    On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:28 AM, <jjim9922@...> wrote:
    I've never heard about the valdotain not being used on dry ropes. I've
    used it many times on dry ropes and it's always worked perfectly. >
  4. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Context is important here.

    The Valdotain CAN be used as a rescue device, for descending a weighted rope (ie, one with a stuck person on it). In this case, the energy of the descent is dissipated in the rope and in the Valdotain. Rope on rope, it seems likely that descending any distance this way would result in too much heat into the Valdotain, resulting in melting.

    With a Technora-based VT, melting of the VT is much less of a problem; however, there is still quite a bit of heat, and using small canyoneering ropes, the possibility of the hot VT melting through the main rope is the next concern... and I think a real concern. Thus one would want to use this technique very, very carefully.

    Which has little to nothing to do with using a VT as an ascending knot.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "charlybldr" <charlybldr@...> wrote:
    Hank is correct. Nylon on nylon, under tension, creates enough heat to melt the nylon VT.
    Unloaded, a nylon VT will slide down the rope just fine. So in that respect I could see it `working perfectly'. When used as a self-belay, it would only have to catch, so might not melt through. But if the nylon VT slides down the main line under tension, for any distance at all, it most assuredly will melt.
    We originally made our VT's out of an old dynamic rope minus two core strands and used them primarily as a way to descend a rope under tension (rescue) in Class C canyons. Wet rope, wet VT = no melt. Nowadays, the Technora VT allows this use in dry conditions. I would still be very slow and deliberate during the descent in any case.
    My favorite use of the VT is for passing knots (not something we do a lot of canyoning). It is easy, quick and secure. And, you don't slide down the rope far enough to melt the VT. Technora VT's makes this even easier.
    We have also been using the Technora VT as the primary rope grab in a gang-on MA haul system for rescue with excellent results. Surprisingly, it acts as a load limiter in the event of accidental dynamic loading.
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon <onkaluna@> wrote:

    Classic VT made w/nylon climbing rope can melt through when descending dry

    On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 10:28 AM, <jjim9922@> wrote:
    > I've never heard about the valdotain not being used on dry ropes. I've
    > used it many times on dry ropes and it's always worked perfectly.
    >
  5. jeflevin

    jeflevin Guest

    There seem to be various types of technora rope on the market...what would you recommend? I've been using a vt made of ice tail (which does melt, although less than nylon), sounds like technora might be better. More details please!

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:

    > With a Technora-based VT, melting of the VT is much less of a problem; however, there is still quite a bit of heat, and using small canyoneering ropes, the possibility of the hot VT melting through the main rope is the next concern... and I think a real concern. Thus one would want to use this technique very, very carefully.
  6. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    I think the BlueWater VT Prusik is a good choice. It has bartacked end loops, so it is much neater and more compact than tying one from a cut piece of rope.

    I am not a Bluewater dealer, so I am unable to sell this item.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "jeflevin" <jeflevin@...> wrote:
    There seem to be various types of technora rope on the market...what would you recommend? I've been using a vt made of ice tail (which does melt, although less than nylon), sounds like technora might be better. More details please!
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:
    > With a Technora-based VT, melting of the VT is much less of a problem; however, there is still quite a bit of heat, and using small canyoneering ropes, the possibility of the hot VT melting through the main rope is the next concern... and I think a real concern. Thus one would want to use this technique very, very carefully. >
  7. Scott Layton

    Scott Layton Guest

    According to the BlueWater web site, the VT Prussik was designed by Rich (Carlson) and is available exclusively from Canyons and Crags web site.

    You won't find it at any other dealer of BlueWater products (e.g., Blackjack Mountain Outfitters is the one I have used for the most extensive selection of BW products).

    Scott L.

  8. charlybldr

    charlybldr Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Context is important here.

    > The Valdotain CAN be used as a rescue device, for descending a weighted rope (ie, one with a stuck person on it). In this case, the energy of the descent is dissipated in the rope and in the Valdotain. Rope on rope, it seems likely that descending any distance this way would result in too much heat into the Valdotain, resulting in melting.

    Rescue primarily/originally in wet canyons where both rope and VT are wet mitigating the heat issue.


    With a Technora-based VT, melting of the VT is much less of a problem; however, there is still quite a bit of heat, and using small canyoneering ropes, the possibility of the hot VT melting through the main rope is the next concern... and I think a real concern. Thus one would want to use this technique very, very carefully.

    Agreed!


    Which has little to nothing to do with using a VT as an ascending knot.

    The VT, although great for descending, is not a particularly good choice for ascending. You loose way too much throw through complression and extension of the hitch.
    Tom >
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