I've never heard about the valdotain not being used on dry ropes. I've used it many times on dry ropes and it's always worked perfectly. Am I missing something? Jim Wright -----Original Message----- From: TomJones email@example.com> To: canyons <Yahoo Canyons Group> Sent: Thu, Sep 27, 2012 5:40 pm Subject: [from Canyons Group] In the name of safety... (Re: NPS Report on Death in Subway) Valdotain. Can be used when the rope is wet. It is not generally considered a valid option in dry conditions. And, you really, really want to have it well practiced, well-understood before stepping over the edge! Tom --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickpratt905" <rpratt@...> wrote: What about the valdotan (sp?) a length of rope with some strands removed that can be rapped around the rope prussic like and descended? I was taught this trick some time ago and tested it out a few years ago in a practice session. Seemed reasonable enough though I am myself a 7 year beginner and have much to learn. I tend to travel with one but it occurs to me that it would be very easy to make in the field though having tested the one you use probably makes sense. --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote: Thanks for the clarification. Maybe this incident fits into the "even people who know what they are doing can get themselves in trouble" category, rather than that other. Yeah, not much to do from above. You did a lower-and-rappel, right? Which seems to be the simplest/easiest way to deal with that. Your friend was not comfortable with his rappel device tied off? This seems to be the point of departure from strict sanity. Yes, down-jugging is pretty much the only way to get down to him. Very slow, very dangerous. Tom --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@> wrote: To clarify Tom, my friend definitely knew how to use the ascenders, how to tie a prussik, and even had some experience passing a knot. He's not a beginner, though he hadn't gone canyoneering in several months. Though I suppose in a way, we were both beginners in regards to descending a 350 foot drop with 2, 200 foot ropes. My friend got nervous, and the 'safety' was a bad idea on both of our parts. > But, perhaps there was something I could have done? If your partner is stuck on rope below you, and you have no more rope up at the top to rappel down to them with, is there any reasonably safe way to get to them to offer help? I briefly considered that it may have been possible to prussik down to him, but that sounded like a pretty terrible idea, and a good way to potentially die. I came up with the idea of slipping a rapid onto the rope with ~ 40 feet of webbing with foot loops tied every 2-3 feet, and sending that down the rope in hopes that he would be able to access one of the foot loops. This seemed only semi-likely to work though, and was kind of a last effort. I saw know good way of actually getting to him.