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Valdotain with long, skinny sling; Bachman Knot?

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Tom Jones, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    There was some discussion earlier of using the new, long skinny dyneema slings (like the Petzl Fin'Anneau 180 cm) for tying a Valdotain, rather than the rigged rope thingee.

    Does this work? any comments?

    I've noticed that a Bachman knot has a lot of similar properties to a Valdotain. Has anyone tried this in combat? Is this perhaps an easier way to do the same thing?

    Tom
  2. Koen

    Koen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    There was some discussion earlier of using the new, long skinny > dyneema slings (like the Petzl Fin'Anneau 180 cm) for tying a > Valdotain, rather than the rigged rope thingee.
    Does this work? any comments?
    I've noticed that a Bachman knot has a lot of similar properties to a > Valdotain. Has anyone tried this in combat? Is this perhaps an > easier way to do the same thing?
    Tom >

    Here in Europe the tampered rope thingee as you call it is being replaced by a sewn 120 cm dyneema sling. But like its predecessor you should find one and the kind of weaving that suits you in the different circumstances (single/double rope, wet/dry, single person/double person descent). Me, I've found myself an industrial prefabricated woven "rope" valdotain which works like a charm :).

    Koen
  3. Dyneema and Spectra both melt at considerably lower temps than nylon. Is there a concern using slings made of these fibers for a VT?

    Also, I've not used a Bachman knot for descending. Is the release and control similar to a VT?

    Charly

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    There was some discussion earlier of using the new, long skinny > dyneema slings (like the Petzl Fin'Anneau 180 cm) for tying a > Valdotain, rather than the rigged rope thingee.
    Does this work? any comments?
    I've noticed that a Bachman knot has a lot of similar properties to a > Valdotain. Has anyone tried this in combat? Is this perhaps an > easier way to do the same thing?
    Tom >
  4. tom

    tom Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    There was some discussion earlier of using the new, long skinny > dyneema slings (like the Petzl Fin'Anneau 180 cm) for tying a > Valdotain, rather than the rigged rope thingee.

    Tom,

    I tried a new wild country double length sling as my first attempt at a valdotain. I descended about 50' from the pine tree in my backyard at a controlled rate and without apparent damage to the sling. I went slow though, and wrapped the hitch very tight given prevous warnings. I was concerned about the spectras' low melting point, but am reasured that the sling I used is rated at 22kn - I would have to burn through quite a bit of sling before its strength was compromised for the descent!

    BTW - wildcountry is also selling a very long version to be used as a cordellette - very light and convenient (although maybe not for canyoneeering).

    -tom dubya-
  5. > There was some discussion earlier of using the new, long skinny > dyneema slings (like the Petzl Fin'Anneau 180 cm) for tying a > Valdotain, rather than the rigged rope thingee.

    From all presentations of the use of a dyneema sling for the valdotain: 8 out of 10 did not work properly and the dyneema got stuck. I think it is a very interesting idea - but it has to be studied a little longer. I heard that this technic should already be published in the new French technical manual. For me it is too early.

    So I will still use my old classic style "climbing rope valdotain" which worked very nice in all situations (but it needs experience).

    > I've noticed that a Bachman knot has a lot of similar properties to a > Valdotain. Has anyone tried this in combat? Is this perhaps an > easier way to do the same thing?

    The valdotain is a combination: the upper turns job is blocking and the job of the twists of the lower part is to defer by friction. Bachmann fulfills only the first job: blocking. There is no defer by friction when released.

    I see many different valdotains in action during the guide courses and that system works realy well. But it has to be trained and you need experience to know how many blocking turns on what diameter of rope, how much load will be on it etc. If you developed that feeling the valdotain works very nice.

    Both systems (dyneema and classic valdotain) have the problem with melting (when they are used on dry ropes !). I would say - both are not made for that. In dry spots you have a little less time pressure because the person doesn't risk to drown (like the girl in the French alps a few weeks ago - she drowned in a waterfall because she got stucked during the rappel). So use in dry canyons other technics. But in wet canyons the valdotain is a good solution - but in our "rescue technics bag" it will mostly be the last one I will choose.

    Think twice if you realy have to go down to a person in perhaps a difficult waterfall - maybee a hauling system or cutting system is the better choice. In my younger guiding days I took the hard way and went into the waterfall, but today I think twice if you would (after all the bad lessons learned during my canyoning life).

    Stefan
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