I use the Valdotain in a variety of applications; passing knots, rescue situations and of all things, tree climbing. The classic canyoneering application is as Koen describes using a piece of climbing rope with a couple of core ends removed to soften it up. This allows the VT to grip the primary rope well without sacrificing a whole lot of overall strength. This is important in rescue situations (two person loads). Works well on ropes 10mm and larger. When using a skinny primary rope (8mm) that fat VT doesn't work as well so I carry one made out of 7mm cord. Works great for passing knots but isn't really strong enough by itself for rescue. As Koen mentioned, nylon rubbing on nylon can be dangerous so make sure to use the cord wet. Arborists use the knot (they call it the Valdotain Tresse or VT) in their tree climbing systems mostly with fat (>11mm) ropes. Interestingly enough their system uses the knot for both ascending and descending, the latter practice subjecting the knot to a fair amount of heat from friction. The most common cord used for this is a high strength polyester cord called Tenex. The stuff is amazingly resistant to glazing. The tree care guys replace this piece of equipment as it begins to wear but I've been impressed at how long it lasts. I find the knot to be very useful in a variety of situations but it really is an "expert" technique (sensitive to rope size and experience level). You should get someone to show it to you (it can be kinda hard to explain) and then practice with different size cords in a safe environment to figure out how to best apply it to your needs. Charly -----Original Message----- From: W. B. [mailto:email@example.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:22 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Huh? A couple of questions: Brian, the rabbit runner you use is all nylon? Brand? You braid it like a valdo? Comments on valdo usage? Used it with the Esprit 6mm? Koen, The instructions for the valdo I last saw were for making it out of a 8.5 - 9mm dynamic and otherwise following your description. Does the size of rope used for the valdo depend at all on the size of main rope you're using? I mostly use 9 -6 mm. Comments? Not that much water here usually but been wanting to try it out during the winter/spring floods. -Bill When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as: Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working? Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/ This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;quot;Edit My Membership&amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press &amp;quot;Save Changes&amp;quot;. DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email to you each day summarizing that day's messages. WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ---------- -- Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: firstname.lastname@example.org c.. Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service.