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Valdotain on 8 mm ropes

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by canyonz, Jul 7, 2003.

  1. canyonz

    canyonz Guest

    No way, Hank! People that use high tech 8 mm ropes are hard-case, big-balled CP canyoners who do not need (deserve?) rescue:)!

    Anyway, it would probably work, but only with a thinner Valdotain I believe. Definitely would need to be wet...

    Julien Senamaud CANYONZ Ltd info@canyonz.co.nz www.canyonz.co.nz PO Box 68057 Newton, Auckland New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: hmoon@petzl.com> To: <Yahoo Canyons Group> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 5:43 AM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: ETHICS~ Guiding in Zion


    I think the idea that a client must book the permit can be easily worked > around by enterprising Americans. Might give rise to a whole new biz of > proxy permit booking. Leveling the playing field isn't really possible when > money and concessions rights are concerned. In the U.S., money is king > where its influence is openly permitted - so until that changes, guides > will have the upper hand once they are allowed into a given area.
    I am not in any way opposed to guiding in principle. However, I do think > there a places guides should not be allowed - Zion is one of them IMO. > There are literally 1000s of other slot canyons in the CP - guide away!
    hank

    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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  2. >No way, Hank! People that use high tech 8 mm ropes are hard-case, big-balled >CP canyoners who do not need (deserve?) rescue:)!

    I'm not among their number; my 8mm is just plain ol' Sisal...

    >Anyway, it would probably work, but only with a thinner Valdotain I believe. >Definitely would need to be wet...

    Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I don't really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I could do it faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo...

    hank
  3. Koen

    Koen Guest


    Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I don't > really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I could do it > faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo... >

    A Valdotain is a personal (got to be "right" for you) tool that fits a lot of applications - be it guides or not.

    And... do you take bets :) ?

    Koen
  4. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote: > Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I don't > really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I could do it > faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo...
    hank

    Yer on!

    Fixed ropes at high noon...

    Brian in SLC
  5. Randi

    Randi Guest

    I thought the Valdotain was mainly used in rescue situations........? It is a pretty cool knot....

    This may be a silly question, and it may have been addressed in a previous post (haven't had time to read them all). I was taught to pass a knot the same way most cavers do, as John pointed out in post #12870, but that was on a fixed rope. If you have a drop of say 30' beyond the point where you've tied two ropes together ~ how do you pull the rope?

    I've given it some thought and the only solution I've come up with is that you'd have to have a stopper knot a little farther than the 30' in the pull cord. Once you've rappelled down, you'd pull the main rope to a point where you could untie the knot. Of course, the pull cord would have to be long enough to take up the slack without disappearing from arms reach. Is this logical? Is there some other retrieve pull the rope?

    ps...Koen ~ I accidentally brought a piece of your gear home and need your address to send it back : )

    Hope all is well with you and your family! I MISS SPAIN!!!!!

    -Randi

    Koen pocoloco@skynet.be> wrote:


    Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I don't > really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I could do it > faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo... >

    A Valdotain is a personal (got to be "right" for you) tool that fits a lot of applications - be it guides or not.

    And... do you take bets :) ?

    Koen

    Groups Sponsor When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

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  6. Koen

    Koen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@y...> wrote: > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote:
    Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I > don't
    really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I could do > it
    faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo...

    hank
    Yer on!
    Fixed ropes at high noon...
    Brian in SLC

    Allright, but we start with holstered guns... eh, tools, right ?

    Before foolishly gambling away your house a word of caution: if I bet I intend to win even if that means cheating :) !

    If I really want to go fast passing a knot I cheat, I don't bother putting a descender - I just go down with the valdotain, rig a munter hitch below the knot on an HMS carabiner ready on the other lifeline, let the valdo slip, clip one end loose and off I go.

    I never timed it but I'd say on a 40 ft rappel off a bridge 45 seconds max, probably faster, depending on how easy you can get over the railing ! That is, standing with everything on your belt on top and clocking off with everything on your belt again and off rope.

    If anyone knows of a faster way I'd be happy to hear it and pay him/her a few beers if we ever cross paths - if like Jonathan says one could safely descend on a shunt that would probably be a draw, but I never tried that nor probably would without proper back-up (read: time loss). The first time I come across an overhang with an deep pool underneath I think I'll give it a try :)

    Koen
  7. Koen

    Koen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi <randi47up@y...> wrote: > I thought the Valdotain was mainly used in rescue situations........? > It is a pretty cool knot....
    This may be a silly question, and it may have been addressed in a previous post (haven't had time to read them all). I was taught to pass a knot the same way most cavers do, as John pointed out in post #12870, but that was on a fixed rope. If you have a drop of say 30' beyond the point where you've tied two ropes together ~ how do you pull the rope? >

    Connect the two (or more) rappelling ends with a shunt or a prussik woven across a carabiner (don't know the English name of that knot) instead of tying them together. Put a stopper knot against the anchor on the side of the retrieval cords, shoestrings, floss :) and connect those to the little hole on the shunt (the one that if pulled forces it open) or on the carabiner. When you pull the retrieval end, the shunt or prussik will slip of the top rope and down comes everything.

    Only to be used after due practise over deep pools !
    ps...Koen ~ I accidentally brought a piece of your gear home and need your address to send it back : ) >

    I was wondering where my handbook of "how to put bolts in sandstone" was ;-) !!!

    Koen
  8. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    OK, Mr Tibloc aka Hank, I gots my time....

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Koen" <pocoloco@s...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote:
    > Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I
    don't
    > really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I > could do
    it
    > faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo...

    Tried this last night. Free hanging rope. Valotain on the rope, and in my guide hand, unloaded. ATC loaded with rope in my brake hand. Descend toward knot. When at the optimum distance above the knot, I stop the rappel, let go of the valdotain, reach over and hit the chrono button on my watch.

    Rap down until the valdotain is loaded, off goes the ATC, reach down, pull up the rope under the knot, on goes the ATC, brake hand on rope below the ATC, reach up, fat finger around (lost precious time here) until I get a grip on the valdotain, run it down the rope until its unloaded, unclip from it, reach over and hit the button on my watch.

    38:05 seconds. Bingo, baby.

    > If I really want to go fast passing a knot I cheat, I don't bother > putting a descender - I just go down with the valdotain, rig a > munter hitch below the knot on an HMS carabiner ready on the > other lifeline, let the valdo slip, clip one end loose and off I go.

    Releasable autoblock (see the "Self Rescue" book for a fair schematic)? Or releasable french prussic (tied with a cordalette) might be fast too. Pop the munter mule, let go of the cord, and the other end stays with you on your harness. Might be faster than a valdotain (which takes a while to unravel off the rope).

    In fact, you could probably rig your ATC on a cord/munter mule and have the second ATC preloaded on the rope...

    Rapping off a rope attached to another rope with an ascender...eeek...

    Come on Hank, post yer time!

    Brian in SLC
  9. Silly! cheatin' Euro methods don't count...unless you'd care to do it in a real situation, say, last drop in Heaps? Knot is 100' off the deck. Like ta see ya rap 200' with a valdo on 8mm ! har de har!!!

    I got an even faster cheat method for these "idealised" drops (40' off a bridge). Slide down the rope like an army guy...



    "beadysee" beadysee@yahoo.c To: Yahoo Canyons Group om> cc: Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Valdotain on 8 mm ropes 07/08/2003 08:11 AM Please respond to canyons





    OK, Mr Tibloc aka Hank, I gots my time....

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Koen" <pocoloco@s...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote:
    > Yeah, I'm kinda thinkin' the Valdo's a nice tool for guides, but I
    don't
    > really see the advantage for simply passing a knot. Bet I > could do
    it
    > faster w/a Tibloc than someone using Valdo...

    Tried this last night. Free hanging rope. Valotain on the rope, and in my guide hand, unloaded. ATC loaded with rope in my brake hand. Descend toward knot. When at the optimum distance above the knot, I stop the rappel, let go of the valdotain, reach over and hit the chrono button on my watch.

    Rap down until the valdotain is loaded, off goes the ATC, reach down, pull up the rope under the knot, on goes the ATC, brake hand on rope below the ATC, reach up, fat finger around (lost precious time here) until I get a grip on the valdotain, run it down the rope until its unloaded, unclip from it, reach over and hit the button on my watch.

    38:05 seconds. Bingo, baby.

    > If I really want to go fast passing a knot I cheat, I don't bother > putting a descender - I just go down with the valdotain, rig a > munter hitch below the knot on an HMS carabiner ready on the > other lifeline, let the valdo slip, clip one end loose and off I go.

    Releasable autoblock (see the "Self Rescue" book for a fair schematic)? Or releasable french prussic (tied with a cordalette) might be fast too. Pop the munter mule, let go of the cord, and the other end stays with you on your harness. Might be faster than a valdotain (which takes a while to unravel off the rope).

    In fact, you could probably rig your ATC on a cord/munter mule and have the second ATC preloaded on the rope...

    Rapping off a rope attached to another rope with an ascender...eeek...

    Come on Hank, post yer time!

    Brian in SLC

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    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

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  10. BTW, Brian, what rope dia. were you using? Just curious.....
  11. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote: > Silly! cheatin' Euro methods don't count...unless you'd care to do it in a > real situation, say, last drop in Heaps? Knot is 100' off the deck. Like ta > see ya rap 200' with a valdo on 8mm ! har de har!!!

    Pay attention, Moon Unit. I'm rappin' on an ATC and holding the Valdotain unloaded.

    Only diff is that I'm holding a Valdotain unloaded.

    I wouldn't rap for any distance on a Valdotain. Silly boy.

    Come on, Mr. Tye Block, lets see YOUR time. Get off that sticky tibloc. Dare ya. If it don't chew thru that skinny rope first.

    > I got an even faster cheat method for these "idealised" drops (40' off a > bridge). Slide down the rope like an army guy...

    Yeah, like to see ya do that last rap in Heaps that way...har dee har... Hans Dulfer would be proud! Been a looooong while since I tried a free air rap on a Dulfersitz...on goldline...yikes...

    My rope diameter...uhhh...not for sure. Was a rope I, uhh, "liberated" from a rappel anchor...seems about a 9mm or 8.5mm I'm guessin'. Kinda sun damaged and crunchy.

    Picked up around 40 feet of 1" webbing last night off a big boulder up BCC...just sittin' there in the dirt...what are these kids thinkin'? Wierd.

    Come on, Merry Hankster, the bet is on. Malt beverages at 20 paces.

    Lets see yer best time, mr. spray lord posin' mo fo. Dare ya. Dare ya.

    Brian in SLC
  12. Pay attention, Moon Unit. I'm rappin' on an ATC and holding the Valdotain unloaded.

    *** I know dis! Just betting it'd be problematic to do this for 200' on skinny cord - esp. if the valdo don't grab it!

    Come on, Mr. Tye Block, lets see YOUR time. Get off that sticky tibloc. Dare ya. If it don't chew thru that skinny rope first.

    *** OK, but need to agree on parameters. I don't think pre-rigging a valdo is realistic in all cases - might burn through the sheath (even unloaded) in a long, dry rap.

    My proposal:

    - Realistic rope: 8 mm dia. or less (you can even use your 6 mm) - Realistic start: only thing on rope is descender and brake hand. Can use only one descender ('biners included) and it must be transferred past the knot. - timing starts when descender is locked off above knot - timing stops when rap resumes

    Yeah, like to see ya do that last rap in Heaps that way...har dee har... Hans Dulfer would be proud! Been a looooong while since I tried a free air rap on a Dulfersitz...on goldline...yikes...

    *** now YOU pay attention, boah!

    ahnk
  13. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote: >I know dis! Just betting it'd be problematic to do this for 200' on >skinny cord - esp. if the valdo don't grab it!

    Valdo grabs just fine (seems to, at least).

    >OK, but need to agree on parameters. I don't think pre-rigging a valdo is realistic in all cases - might burn through the sheath (even unloaded)in a long, dry rap.

    Not at all unrealistic. Gee, I'd bet in "most" cases you'd know ahead of time you're going to have to pass a knot, eh?

    Loose valdotain on a loaded rope slides down with little friction. No problemo. And...I'm using my Bluewater Titan anchor webbing (rabbit runner) as the valdotain, fyi. So, bulky? Not even close, holmes.

    Preload your tibloc if you want (hee hee).

    > My proposal:
    - Realistic rope: 8 mm dia. or less (you can even use your 6 mm)

    Free air? Nah, 6mm not for knot passin'. Ugly bidness.

    8mm? How 'bout a semi trashed 7.8mm ice floss? That'll do.

    >Realistic start: only thing on rope is descender and brake hand. Can use only one descender ('biners included) and it must be transferred past the knot.

    Hmmm...realistic would be as if you knew the knot was coming up.

    But, ok. I'll bite. One descender only on rope. No back up. Free air.

    > - timing starts when descender is locked off above knot

    You mean when your brake hand comes free? Wonder if I could rig something without locking off the descender...bend the rules a tad...hmmm... Be hard to position a valdotain with one hand. Would also be hard to position a tibloc with one hand, maybe. Might could, but there's a risk of dropping. Hmmm...

    How 'bout timing starts when rappel is stopped for the first time? Or, when there's any other activity besides rappin'. So, factor in however you want/need to lock off.

    > - timing stops when rap resumes

    Only after all hardware above and below is removed from the rope. No leavin' any junk behind.

    >now YOU pay attention, boah!

    That's it, now you done it.

    Them's fightin' words. Skinny free hangin' ropes tonight. Show up, if'n yer man enough. My place, post work...

    Brian in SLC
  14. Brian

    can't do 2nite - but will be in SLC 2moro nite - game then?
  15. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    B-b-b-awk bawk bawk...

    Chicken!

    Nah, no can do manana... And, all my ropes are 'fraid of yer tibloc...

    But, I trust ya. Get yer time on, holmes. Post here.

    I need to try a one hander with a autoblock...use that rabbit runner...leave it clipped to harness, then, stop rap, pick up runner, wrap around a bunch of time, reclip to harness, let go, see what happens... Might be as easy to move and unload as a valdotain...

    Rope tricks r fun...

    Brian in SLC

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hmoon@p... wrote:
    Brian
    can't do 2nite - but will be in SLC 2moro nite - game then?
  16. Randi

    Randi Guest

    Koen pocoloco@skynet.be> wrote: --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi <randi47up@y...> wrote: ~ how do you pull the rope?

    Connect the two (or more) rappelling ends with a shunt or a prussik woven across a carabiner instead of tying them together. Put a stopper knot against the anchor on the side of the retrieval cords, and connect those to the little hole on the shunt (the one that if pulled forces it open) or on the carabiner. When you pull the retrieval end, the shunt or prussik will slip of the top rope and down comes everything.

    Can you draw a picture, scan it and send it over? I'M JUST NOT GETTING IT! And don't say my brain is fried : )

    I guess I'm going to have to actually try it to understand what you're explaining.

    ps....does JJ have a deadline on when he has to have the pictures? I still haven't scanned mine yet. I'm going to have to invest in a digital camera one of these days.

    ps...Koen ~ I accidentally brought a piece of your gear home and need your address to send it back : ) >

    I was wondering where my handbook of "how to put bolts in sandstone" was ;-) !!!

    Oh That? No, I have something else of yours. Rich was the last one I saw with that book! I'll ask him about it when he returns from Mexico.

    Cya!

    -Randi



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    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

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  17. John Camplin

    John Camplin Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi <randi47up@y...> wrote: > ps....does JJ have a deadline on when he has to have the pictures? I still haven't scanned mine yet. I'm going to have to invest in a digital camera one of these days. >

    Ditto.... I'll email JJ later today to find out (He probably has it all done and dusted already I suspect)

    John
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