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undisclosed canyons

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Adam C, Sep 26, 2012.

  1. Adam C

    Adam C Guest

    I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out. I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to. Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area. So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets.
  2. Luke

    Luke Guest

    I would enjoy hearing the responses of the community on this one. It is fun to see how much banter can be generated from topics like this and it helps people explore their own inner thoughts (assuming people are willing to question themselves at all). Thanks for poking it out there Adam.



    Personally I am a share it all kind of guy and strive to stay clear of trips with conditions set on how it can be shared. Just a personal preference to keep my own internal stresses to a minimum. I have a problem with the internal conflict that secret stuff causes within my own self. I find the secret keeping game can even negatively impact my social interactions. There are stories I would love to tell people because I am just plain excited about it (like say meeting a specific someone) or would like to tell of my own technical screw ups in order to help others gain a lesson from it. In both cases I have proven to myself a few times over that if I share these stories, one of the first questions I am asked is "where was that?" Then I need to dodge the question or tell them I can't say. So I find myself needing to monitor who I can talk to and what I can talk to them about, even when I have no desire to share the location of the "secret" place. Let me be very clear that these reasons for disliking the secret stuff is NOT a reflection of what I view as right or wrong for the idea itself. It is simply a consequence of being personally involved in secret canyons complicates who I am at a core level. So while I want to be able to share everything, I do not feel that everyone needs to be like me and do the same.



    I also have no problem (zero issues) with people wanting to keep things secret. Simply because you know about a place does not mean you are obligated in any way to share it, period! So if you want it secret then by all means keep it secret and be quiet about it. Seriously a secret is something you don't tell, if you tell any part of it at all in ANY form you have just let out part of the secret or teased that you have a secret.



    To share or not to share is a personal choice and each has a lot of subjective and objective reasons associated with it. Reasons on both sides of the equation can be argued to death. Complicating the arguments farther is that most people's views are skewed as a result of past experiences. Further complication occurs when people get swept up into other people's views and do not question "themselves" internally. And further complicating things is the possibility of ulterior motives and agendas. Adam you say yourself that some of your reasons were selfish in wanting to keep your solitude. Imagine someone who has that same reason or some other agenda arguing their point. If they do not wish to admit their selfish agenda they will toss out a lot of other arguments to present a view that aids their desires. One could want their own personal invite only playground for example and decide to hide their true motives behind any of the non-disclosure reasons commonly used. Reasons like protecting the canyon, protecting artifacts, land right issues or to protect people from hurting themselves etc.



    The problem with all this non-disclosed canyon stuff is not if it is shared or not. Sharing or not, is a choice and is only right or wrong when viewed through your personal window into life. The problem happens when you start playing in the middle ground somewhere.



    Show don't tell is a middle ground in my opinion since the canyon is shared but only with select individuals. Sure the numbers grow over the years but the access is still regulated somewhere between share and don't share. Some people are allowed / invited in and others are not due to social connections or lack of.



    Another way to play somewhere in the middle is to share pictures and stories of a canyon then refuse to tell where it is. That is just a big tease. People see pics and hear cool stories and they get interested. This is not a canyon specific issue but is life in general. If you see something cool or hear a great story your interest is peaked. If you want it secret then by all means keep it secret and stay quiet.



    I am sure there are more ways to play in the middle between share and don't share but don't feel the need to figure out what they are.



    The one and only problem I really have with this subject is the middle ground. So doing things like showing pics, telling stories or having a show don't tell area is not really an issue of secrecy or non-disclosure. This middle ground falls into it's own category where all the gray areas of the secret subject get all twisted up. And some of those twisted up reasons get mixed in with agenda's people may have and it is just a huge mess that will never die. I kinda think of this middle ground stuff as "Canyon Hokey Pokey".... You put your secret in, you put your secret out, you put your secret in and you shake it all about, you do the hokey pokey and you show your secret off, that's what its all about!



    People can feel very strong about this middle ground stuff and this subject can generate some serious passion. If you are on one side or the other of this argument and have friends on the other side it is fairly simple to just play together when your views are not in conflict and play separately when they are in conflict. Keeping in mind that your views are not the only way, helps with this. But when you start playing in the middle ground between secret and share you create an environment where people on opposite sides of this equation end up clashing. The negative consequence of this sometimes translates into intolerance or not respecting the other's views and friendships can be strained. I find that idea very sad when you look at the big picture of how many fun places and people this wonderful sport brings into many of our lives.



    Adam I am not afraid to admit your question hits a particular chord in me as I have wrestled with this stuff personally. So I had to rant out my own view and hope to see this spawn more talk among the group publicly. As to your question if you should share your secret places... I say keep it secret if you feel moved to do so or share it if you feel moved to do so, but personally feel it would be wrong to play in the middle somewhere. It sounds like you are not solid in your own personal view of sharing these places or not. I would urge you to keep it secret until or if you come to a solid view on why it should be shared. You can't un-share something you know (well you can do damage control and ask people to withdraw any mention of it and kind of un-share something).



    I suspect that your purpose of this thread is to assist yourself in discovering your own views? Or do you already have your views in placed and are comfortable with them but fear rejection so you are testing the waters for acceptance? Listening to other people's views is a great way to kick start your thinker. But simply adopting an idea that someone tosses at you because it sounded good when you heard it is not productive. Sleep on it, talk to those you trust (and who are open to real thought) and above all listen to those little nagging voices in your own gut before you start forming solid ideas. No matter what you choose there will be people with solid and very good reasons why you made the wrong choice. Follow your soul buddy.

    Luke









    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of Adam C Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:28 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] undisclosed canyons





    I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out. I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to. Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area. So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets.
  3. rickinlo

    rickinlo Guest

    Definitely a solid point on the "middle ground" issue Luke.

    Putting up pictures and saying the canyon is a secret is what makes people upset. If you don't put up pictures and talk about your secret canyons, no one will know they exist, and they can't get mad at you for keeping them a secret.

    Also, if you do put up pictures, and say things about canyons, people with some experience finding canyons will find them. Then they might tell other people, and you no longer have a secret.

    I'm personally of the opinion that you should share things. After I do a canyon, I don't really want to do it over and over anyway, so I'd prefer to let other people know so they can enjoy it. This obviously has some negative results (eg. bolts) but I prefer it to huddling together in small secretive, poorly advertised monthly meeting groups where you glare warily at any new comers refuse to do anything but invite them on moderately lame, not particularly exciting trips until they've been around for a year or two. Unlike some similar outdoor communities, I feel like we get enough sunlight in canyons to where we aren't quite that weird and afraid of the light.

    Just kidding, cavers have their reasons.
  4. Nice rant Luke! You write eloquently. Its too bad we don't hear from you more often. This musta hit a nerve.

    Personally, I do not have the internal issues you do. In my fourth year, I still consider myself fairly new to the sport and getting to see show don't tell canyons makes me feel like I have been allowed into the "inner circle". Makes me feel good. I, in turn, love playing the big shot and showing those canyons to others, often folks who have been at it longer than myself but just haven't made the effort to connect with the community that I have.

    I have one regular partner that insists on keeping all his trips small, just inviting two or three folks within his circle. I love going with him, but find it interesting that he is generally doing well beta'ed canyons. He avoid the large groups that have gotten me so well connected in such a short time, and has missed seeing many of these places. I get to be the show off and share them with him from time to time.

    On the other hand, I love to share and I have a big mouth. I would never violate a show don't tell agreement, but I do have to be careful not to tease with pictures and stories. I can barely contain my excitement when I return from a great trip in secret canyons, so my tendency is to post pictures, rave about how great a canyon was, then say "sorry, it's secret". Its gotten me hammered on the web more than once.

    I like what Sierra Canyons has done. They do not post their beta publicly, but they do have it on the web. You must get invited by someone to get access. Took me all of two days to get an invite and have folks eager to share their secrets. Again, the power of being a friendly, enthusiastic pest.

    In summary, I love show don't tell canyons, as long as I get shown. I am outgoing enough to make the connections to get into these canyons and I like the idea that there are plenty more secrets that will be revealed to me as long as I keep showing up and showing interest. I will keep the secrets of others, and if I eventually start to explore and find my own secrets, I will most certainly be dragging as many friends as will follow to share what I have found. Will I piublicly post the beta? I would like to say no but I am betting I won't have the self control if the choice is purely mine.

    Thanks for sharing your finds so generously Luke. I have enjoyed them immensely.

    Dean



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Adam C" <cynhermit@...> wrote:
    I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out. > I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to. > Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area. > So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets. >
  5. jddiener

    jddiener Guest

    I'll offer up a response to this. First, if you find a place through your own effort, I think it is your right to not share the information, or share it as you wish (of course once shared, anything can happen with the information).

    The "middle ground" that Luke and others talk about is a tough one. I can understand when folks get irritated and see it as someone dangling candy in front of them only to snatch it away. Or the "secret club" thing (which I think is overblown). There have probably been a few flagrant such situations, but generally I view it differently. My thinking is more like "hey, there is nothing preventing me from getting off my lazy butt and finding these places myself." And sometimes I think people put out pictures knowing it may prod people to explore a little farther. Not a bad thing in my mind.

    A side-question for you Adam. You mention this canyon has bolts in it, so you knew when you found it that others had gone before (or did they appear after your find?). How much did this take away from your experience? One of the arguments I hear is that canyons can't really be "preserved" for future explorers. I would argue differently. One, new clean/ghostign techniques are leading to more and more canyons being done with no evidence left at all. And two, yes, it takes the edge off to know that people have traveled the canyon before you, but I still think the experience is very different. In one case, not knowing at all what is around the next corner, and in the other case knowing a 10m rap with W&R/QL from a chockstone is around that corner.

    My personal background? I tend to lean towards keeping things under the radar, but I've both offered to share information on canyons and kept secrets. It seems to me there already is plenty of public canyon beta out there, enough to keep average joes like me going through the rest of their canyoneering career if they want to stick to "known" canyons. My breakdown is roughly - is it near a popular canyoneering area, or easily accessible? Then share. Is it a remote, wilderness area? Preserve it for others to explore and enjoy. I read a book recently, "The Last Season" by Eric Blehm (decent book, probably even better if you know the Sierra). The subject of the book, Randy Morgenson, once wrote "Let not I be the one to draw you out. The more of you who remain, the more lonely will be my mountains, which is just the way I prefer them. Nor would I tell those of you who are seeking this country where I live. Find it yourselves, and it will be all the sweeter." That last sentence in particular speaks to me - I hope there will always be places to explore and find.

    -john

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Adam C" <cynhermit@...> wrote:
    I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out. > I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to. > Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area. > So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets. >
  6. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    A complex issue, and really a choice for each person that has a "secret" canyon in their pocket.

    But let me talk to a specific flavor of this question, which you touch on - what to do when you find someone else's "secret" canyon?

    Hmmmm.

    Perhaps first, you should figure out why someone has kept "this canyon" secret.

    Your example may be a canyon we use for guiding, which is already one of the most-heavily-used canyons in the Zion area, and while an OK canyon, is not real good for self-guided parties. But it is an excellent canyon for guiding, and there are not many of those. So I claim that revealing this canyon to the general public, drawing more members of the general public to THIS canyon, would not serve the community.

    But maybe you are talking a different canyon, one we have kept quiet for years, but that a persistent canyoneer sniffed out from pictures on the internet that did not show much, but showed some. "I found it myself", he said. Though of course, he found it by looking at published pictures and doing some good detective work - which is not really "myself"...

    There can be many reasons for keeping a canyon secret, including just by happenstance. And certainly sometimes you will have no idea why someone kept it secret, or who that someone is.

    When you find someone's secret canyon, should you publish the beta?

    May I suggest that respecting your fellow-canyoneer's desire to keep it on the low-down is a good idea. It's a matter of respect. Show respect, as a matter of character. Even if you don't know who you are showing respect for.

    That's my take on it. The recently outed canyon feels tawdry to me. I thought *** was my friend, but my friends respect my opinion, respect me; and choosing the glee of releasing my secret to the masses indicates that I was mistaken, that *** is not my friend. An unfortunate conclusion to reach, heavy on the heart.

    Tom
  7. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:
    Putting up pictures and saying the canyon is a secret is what makes people upset. If you don't put up pictures and talk about your secret canyons, no one will know they exist, and they can't get mad at you for keeping them a secret. >

    Inquire within.

    Am I to not show pictures then? Half my Latest Rave is on canyons that do not have public beta. Am I constantly pissing people off? (well, I mean, by showing these pictures?)

    Haven't heard many people complain. My take is that if you get pissed off by people showing pictures of non-public canyons, the problem is with you, not the publication of the pictures.

    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/canyoneering-lake-powell-with-the-merry-men-sept-2012/ http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/mumbai-canyon/ http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0510aard/index.htm http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/1005bo/

    etc.

    Tom
  8. Luke Galyan

    Luke Galyan Guest

    Dean it is interesting that your entire response revolved around the show don't tell issue.

    The original poster wanted to know if he should share or not share. He did not ask if a show don't tell was the best way to go. Your response further illustrates that the real problem has nothing to to do with sharing or keeping things secret. The real issues arise when you dabble somewhere in the middle ground. Just thought I would point that out before a reply to your post.

    Sharing or keeping something totaly secret are oposite ends of the spectrum. Ideas and views can be discussed where people choose sides for various reasons and continue to consider their views. But that middle ground is where all this stuff gets twisted up.

    So to add a little banter in the "off topic" direction this thread will likely take.......

    You mention liking the show don't tell stuff since it allows you to feel accepted into the inner circle. I agree, it does give that feel. What about those people who lack the social skills to do what you do or make connections with people like you? What about those unlucky few with horrible people skills but are overall good and skilled people? Their terrible social skills can turn people off preventing an invite. What about the people who really want to see these places because of pics and stories but live say in Florida and only get to make one canyoneering pilgrimage anually and lack the community connections as a result of living so far away? So if you have good social skills, you are cool enough to be invited (in the club per se). If you live close enough to mingle frequently you can end up on one those trips too, letting you feel you've made it to the inner circle (or was that in the club again?).

    You say the show don't tell also allows you to play big shot and show off your knowledge. I agree it does. Everyone loves to have their ego stroked. Being able to share a place and play big shot does just that. The problem is, you still have the in the club feel but this time you get to be the grand puh bah! Woo hoo! And since knowledge like this is a little on the exclusive side it can very easily lend itself to being used for power in subtle ways. Like being looked up to because you have lots of valuble stuff you might pass out if I rub your back. Or the power to dictate who you think cool enough to be allowed into the canyon. Sure these things don't happen with everyone but they can easily take place. And when stuff like that does take place it is usually kept behind the scenes. Those doing this will argue their point hiding behind the same non-disclosure reasons I already mentioned in my last post. This hiding behind issues further complicates any real discussion.

    And as a side note I know everyone has an ego and likes it stroked a bit. But if you focus a lot of attention on getting to be in the inner circle or getting to show off your knowledge and skills so you feel like a big shot................. why are you canyoneering? Are you in it for the fun places and cool friends? Or are you in it because you have a desire to be looked up to or accepted? Is the canyon community and its percieved inner circle(s) being used as a tool for you to get your ego boost or are you just in it for fun, frolic and challenge with good friends? I assume the answer would be a mix between the two for most people.

    Don't get me wrong I agree there are good sides to the show don't tell. The good that I see in it is it can encourage new commers to seek out community interaction and that is great! I also know that some people enjoy sharing on an intimate level which the show don't tell stuff lends itself to. But the overall in the club or I'm the man or let's pick and choose who we think worthy side of things overshadows the good side in my opinion.

    I wish to stress one more time that this is still "off topic" from what I percieve as the original posters intent. Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should spill the beans? Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should keep his secrets tucked away? Anyone want to convince Adam that maybe he could swirl things all up together and take us through in show don't tell fasion?

    I did open up and really rant here. But let's not lose focus on the fact that Adam is asking for help with his dilema.

    Thanks for the compliment on my post writting style Dean. This one from my phone so will likely not be as nice. :)

    Luke



    Sent from my phone

    evergreen_dean dbrooks@integralpays.com> wrote:

    >Nice rant Luke! You write eloquently. Its too bad we don't hear from you more often. This musta hit a nerve.
    Personally, I do not have the internal issues you do. In my fourth year, I still consider myself fairly new to the sport and getting to see show don't tell canyons makes me feel like I have been allowed into the "inner circle". Makes me feel good. I, in turn, love playing the big shot and showing those canyons to others, often folks who have been at it longer than myself but just haven't made the effort to connect with the community that I have.
    I have one regular partner that insists on keeping all his trips small, just inviting two or three folks within his circle. I love going with him, but find it interesting that he is generally doing well beta'ed canyons. He avoid the large groups that have gotten me so well connected in such a short time, and has missed seeing many of these places. I get to be the show off and share them with him from time to time.
    On the other hand, I love to share and I have a big mouth. I would never violate a show don't tell agreement, but I do have to be careful not to tease with pictures and stories. I can barely contain my excitement when I return from a great trip in secret canyons, so my tendency is to post pictures, rave about how great a canyon was, then say "sorry, it's secret". Its gotten me hammered on the web more than once.
    I like what Sierra Canyons has done. They do not post their beta publicly, but they do have it on the web. You must get invited by someone to get access. Took me all of two days to get an invite and have folks eager to share their secrets. Again, the power of being a friendly, enthusiastic pest.
    In summary, I love show don't tell canyons, as long as I get shown. I am outgoing enough to make the connections to get into these canyons and I like the idea that there are plenty more secrets that will be revealed to me as long as I keep showing up and showing interest. I will keep the secrets of others, and if I eventually start to explore and find my own secrets, I will most certainly be dragging as many friends as will follow to share what I have found. Will I piublicly post the beta? I would like to say no but I am betting I won't have the self control if the choice is purely mine.
    Thanks for sharing your finds so generously Luke. I have enjoyed them immensely.
    Dean

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Adam C" <cynhermit@...> wrote: >
    > I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out. >> I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to. >> Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area. >> So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets. >
    >
  9. rickinlo

    rickinlo Guest

    Tom, there have been at least a couple of angry rants about that posted online. You probably are making someone out there jealous, but no you shouldn't stop posting about it. I enjoy the raves.
  10. ratagonia

    ratagonia Guest

    I think the question for regular members of the forum is:

    - is this just a sour grapes response from a few immature individuals?

    - or is this a piss-off shared by many members of the forum?

    - (other)

    Members???

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:
    Tom, there have been at least a couple of angry rants about that posted online. You probably are making someone out there jealous, but no you shouldn't stop posting about it. I enjoy the raves. >
  11. Luke Galyan

    Luke Galyan Guest

    Interesting. You ask if more people are upset by show don't tell and at the same time call those people immature? :(

    Just sayin Luke

    Sent from my phone

    ratagonia ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:

    >I think the question for regular members of the forum is:
    - is this just a sour grapes response from a few immature individuals?
    - or is this a piss-off shared by many members of the forum?
    - (other)
    Members???
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote: >
    > Tom, there have been at least a couple of angry rants about that posted online. You probably are making someone out there jealous, but no you shouldn't stop posting about it. I enjoy the raves. >
    >
  12. Maybe this sour grapes view is a reason for Bogley’s membership growth? I am one of those individuals that have discovered other people’s secrets, sniffed out my own, and provided beta to an online publisher on a consistent basis. And while I have canyoned with you Tom – and think you have done great things for the sport of canyoneering - we civilly agree to disagree on this topic. I hope the responses that follow may not attack or diminish another’s viewpoints – simply express their own. I am for spreading the traffic around and giving canyoneers options and feel open sharing is the best way for a solid canyoneering community. Bruce

    To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: luke@bluugnome.com Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:43:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] undisclosed canyons

























    Interesting. You ask if more people are upset by show don't tell and at the same time call those people immature? :(



    Just sayin

    Luke



    Sent from my phone



    ratagonia ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:



    >I think the question for regular members of the forum is:

    >

    >- is this just a sour grapes response from a few immature individuals?

    >

    >- or is this a piss-off shared by many members of the forum?

    >

    >- (other)

    >

    >Members???

    >

    >Tom

    >

    >--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:

    >>

    >> Tom, there have been at least a couple of angry rants about that posted online. You probably are making someone out there jealous, but no you shouldn't stop posting about it. I enjoy the raves.

    >>

    >

    >
  13. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    I give options...

    Members are entitled to provide whatever spin they wish.

    T

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan <luke@...> wrote:
    Interesting. You ask if more people are upset by show don't tell and at the same time call those people immature? :(
    Just sayin > Luke
    Sent from my phone
    ratagonia <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    >I think the question for regular members of the forum is:

    - is this just a sour grapes response from a few immature individuals?

    - or is this a piss-off shared by many members of the forum?

    - (other)

    Members???

    Tom
  14. Luke Galyan

    Luke Galyan Guest

    Good point on what to do if you find a canyon that someone else has found and is keeping secret......

    If you did your own independent research and scouting etc to find the canyon, then later find that someone had gone before, the decision is pretty straight forward. You both found the place with no outside assistance and BOTH have the right to share or not share based on your own values. Simply because someone found it first does not give them "ownership" of the canyon. If person A wishes it left secret and person B wishes to share then you have a problem. Both have Equal right to proceed as they see fit. What dictates a possible variance from the decision would be the personal relationship between those people either directly or via mutual friends and community acceptance issues.

    Tom, the rest of this seems to speak directly to interactions I shared with you and others over Checkerboard. So again a chord is struck and I will rant a bit.

    If a person found a canyon that had been kept secret by using online pics etc, then that changes the game a bit. Tom, are you refering to my finding Checkerboard? If so, I believe you are taking the "I found it myself" statement a little out of context. If you go back and look at the emails you, I and others shared you may find the context was... I found it myself by using publicly posted information and my feel for the area. Big difference from simply saying I found it myself.

    The finding of Checkerboard was born from a conversation with friends who wanted to do the canyon but said it was one of the biggest secrets in the canyon community. I hate the taunting of secrets and decided to try and find the place for two reasons. First I wanted to deliver the trip to friends who wanted to see it but felt the secrt was out of reach. Second I was motivated by my dislike for the taunting of secret places with stories and pictures. See what I mean about this middle ground being the problem?

    You mention respecting my fellow canyoneers desire to keep it on the down low. In my original post I mentioned that secrecy is not the issue for me. The middle ground is an issue however. I wrestled with the issue of respecting the founders desire for downlowness and wrestled at the same time with my dislike for taunting. So this was a mixed bag for me. I wrestled internally with this a lot and in the end did not publish it and decided to kinda sit on it for a while. Later the founder of Checkerboard gave me permission to publish it. I still held off since it didn't feel right and it remained unpublished. Later the founder informed me that Checkerboard had been published on Shane's site. When I was a bit shocked I was told "I already said you could publish it". Thank you to Kip (the founder of Checkerboard) for that permission by the way. If you look at how things really went down, I did respect (and still respect) my fellow canyoneer very much. But I also have values that are in direct conflict with the show don't tell stuff. Hhhhhmmmmm. What a mixed bag this middle ground stuff.

    Tom, were you refering to me when you said "I thought *** was my friend, but friends respect me; and choosing the glee of releasing my secret to the masses indicates that I was mistaken, that *** is not my friend."? Funny thing about you view of friendship and respect. If someone has a view that differs from yours and lives their own life, do you renounce them as a friend? is it not possible to respect someone and value their opinions but at the same time not have the same views? I can respect someone very much and yet feel very differently about an issue. Am I bound by the views of my friends and need to live my life the way they want me to? If so which set of friends do I allow to be my daddy and dictate my actions? Even among my friends there are differing views. Or should I instead follow my own values and make my own decisions even when they are not in line with how others would dictate I lead my life? Can respect and agreement be seperated? I think they can. Sounds like they are the same thing in your mind? I do not have to do as another person tells me to do in order to respect them and their views.

    Where is the respect I deserve as a human being? I did not get the information via sneaky actions nor did I violate any spoken or unspoken agreements with people. I used public information and a little sluething to fight back at something I felt was wrong. Someone may lead their life differently, but should I also get the respect of being able to have and excercise my own views? Respect and friendship go BOTH ways you know.

    If you were not talking about me this was for nothing but it is still good to air it in a public forum. If you were talking about me there is no need to be vague.

    Again back to my original post where I said disagreement in this middle ground area can lead to intolerance and evetually strain friendships. Funny how it all keeps comming back to this middle ground policy. Lots of gray areas and too many sides and alliances develop.

    And once again this is (as originally predicted) all about the middle ground and does little to assist Adam with his original inquiry.

    Anyone wanna help Adam out by getting on topic and helping him with deciding to Share or to Secret?

    Luke

    P.S. Tom I still think of you as a friend. Just one who has differing views from my own........ and I respect you while still dtill disagreeing and choosing to live my way. I earned it, I'm a big boy in the eyes of the law. Mybe not a big boy in the eyes of my peers.



    Sent from my phone

    TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:

    >A complex issue, and really a choice for each person that has a "secret" canyon in their pocket.
    But let me talk to a specific flavor of this question, which you touch on - what to do when you find someone else's "secret" canyon?
    Hmmmm.
    Perhaps first, you should figure out why someone has kept "this canyon" secret.
    Your example may be a canyon we use for guiding, which is already one of the most-heavily-used canyons in the Zion area, and while an OK canyon, is not real good for self-guided parties. But it is an excellent canyon for guiding, and there are not many of those. So I claim that revealing this canyon to the general public, drawing more members of the general public to THIS canyon, would not serve the community.
    But maybe you are talking a different canyon, one we have kept quiet for years, but that a persistent canyoneer sniffed out from pictures on the internet that did not show much, but showed some. "I found it myself", he said. Though of course, he found it by looking at published pictures and doing some good detective work - which is not really "myself"...
    There can be many reasons for keeping a canyon secret, including just by happenstance. And certainly sometimes you will have no idea why someone kept it secret, or who that someone is.
    When you find someone's secret canyon, should you publish the beta?
    May I suggest that respecting your fellow-canyoneer's desire to keep it on the low-down is a good idea. It's a matter of respect. Show respect, as a matter of character. Even if you don't know who you are showing respect for.
    That's my take on it. The recently outed canyon feels tawdry to me. I thought *** was my friend, but my friends respect my opinion, respect me; and choosing the glee of releasing my secret to the masses indicates that I was mistaken, that *** is not my friend. An unfortunate conclusion to reach, heavy on the heart.
    Tom >
  15. Luke Galyan

    Luke Galyan Guest

    Options are nice. Name calling (even implied) usually degrades discussion to a non productive status or a scretching hault.

    Luke

    Sent from my phone

    TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:

    >I give options...
    Members are entitled to provide whatever spin they wish.
    T
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan <luke@...> wrote: >
    > Interesting. You ask if more people are upset by show don't tell and at the same time call those people immature? :( >
    > Just sayin >> Luke >
    > Sent from my phone >
    > ratagonia <ratagonia@...> wrote: >

    I think the question for regular members of the forum is: >
    >
    - is this just a sour grapes response from a few immature individuals? >
    >
    - or is this a piss-off shared by many members of the forum? >
    >
    - (other) >
    >
    Members??? >
    >
    Tom >
  16. titanstairs

    titanstairs Guest

    I myself like to share my information. If I enjoyed a canyon then I would assume others will also. I I was asked to keel it secret then I would but otherwise I enjoy sharing my stories with others and hearing them. The comrade and friends made is what is all about

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan <luke@...> wrote:
    Dean it is interesting that your entire response revolved around the show don't tell issue.
    The original poster wanted to know if he should share or not share. He did not ask if a show don't tell was the best way to go. Your response further illustrates that the real problem has nothing to to do with sharing or keeping things secret. The real issues arise when you dabble somewhere in the middle ground. Just thought I would point that out before a reply to your post.
    Sharing or keeping something totaly secret are oposite ends of the spectrum. Ideas and views can be discussed where people choose sides for various reasons and continue to consider their views. But that middle ground is where all this stuff gets twisted up.
    So to add a little banter in the "off topic" direction this thread will likely take.......
    You mention liking the show don't tell stuff since it allows you to feel accepted into the inner circle. I agree, it does give that feel. What about those people who lack the social skills to do what you do or make connections with people like you? What about those unlucky few with horrible people skills but are overall good and skilled people? Their terrible social skills can turn people off preventing an invite. What about the people who really want to see these places because of pics and stories but live say in Florida and only get to make one canyoneering pilgrimage anually and lack the community connections as a result of living so far away? So if you have good social skills, you are cool enough to be invited (in the club per se). If you live close enough to mingle frequently you can end up on one those trips too, letting you feel you've made it to the inner circle (or was that in the club again?).
    You say the show don't tell also allows you to play big shot and show off your knowledge. I agree it does. Everyone loves to have their ego stroked. Being able to share a place and play big shot does just that. The problem is, you still have the in the club feel but this time you get to be the grand puh bah! Woo hoo! And since knowledge like this is a little on the exclusive side it can very easily lend itself to being used for power in subtle ways. Like being looked up to because you have lots of valuble stuff you might pass out if I rub your back. Or the power to dictate who you think cool enough to be allowed into the canyon. Sure these things don't happen with everyone but they can easily take place. And when stuff like that does take place it is usually kept behind the scenes. Those doing this will argue their point hiding behind the same non-disclosure reasons I already mentioned in my last post. This hiding behind issues further complicates any real discussion.
    And as a side note I know everyone has an ego and likes it stroked a bit. But if you focus a lot of attention on getting to be in the inner circle or getting to show off your knowledge and skills so you feel like a big shot................. why are you canyoneering? Are you in it for the fun places and cool friends? Or are you in it because you have a desire to be looked up to or accepted? Is the canyon community and its percieved inner circle(s) being used as a tool for you to get your ego boost or are you just in it for fun, frolic and challenge with good friends? I assume the answer would be a mix between the two for most people.
    Don't get me wrong I agree there are good sides to the show don't tell. The good that I see in it is it can encourage new commers to seek out community interaction and that is great! I also know that some people enjoy sharing on an intimate level which the show don't tell stuff lends itself to. But the overall in the club or I'm the man or let's pick and choose who we think worthy side of things overshadows the good side in my opinion.
    I wish to stress one more time that this is still "off topic" from what I percieve as the original posters intent. Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should spill the beans? Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should keep his secrets tucked away? Anyone want to convince Adam that maybe he could swirl things all up together and take us through in show don't tell fasion?
    I did open up and really rant here. But let's not lose focus on the fact that Adam is asking for help with his dilema.
    Thanks for the compliment on my post writting style Dean. This one from my phone so will likely not be as nice. :)
    Luke

    Sent from my phone
    evergreen_dean <dbrooks@...> wrote:
    >Nice rant Luke! You write eloquently. Its too bad we don't hear from you more often. This musta hit a nerve.

    Personally, I do not have the internal issues you do. In my fourth year, I still consider myself fairly new to the sport and getting to see show don't tell canyons makes me feel like I have been allowed into the "inner circle". Makes me feel good. I, in turn, love playing the big shot and showing those canyons to others, often folks who have been at it longer than myself but just haven't made the effort to connect with the community that I have.

    I have one regular partner that insists on keeping all his trips small, just inviting two or three folks within his circle. I love going with him, but find it interesting that he is generally doing well beta'ed canyons. He avoid the large groups that have gotten me so well connected in such a short time, and has missed seeing many of these places. I get to be the show off and share them with him from time to time.

    On the other hand, I love to share and I have a big mouth. I would never violate a show don't tell agreement, but I do have to be careful not to tease with pictures and stories. I can barely contain my excitement when I return from a great trip in secret canyons, so my tendency is to post pictures, rave about how great a canyon was, then say "sorry, it's secret". Its gotten me hammered on the web more than once.

    I like what Sierra Canyons has done. They do not post their beta publicly, but they do have it on the web. You must get invited by someone to get access. Took me all of two days to get an invite and have folks eager to share their secrets. Again, the power of being a friendly, enthusiastic pest.

    In summary, I love show don't tell canyons, as long as I get shown. I am outgoing enough to make the connections to get into these canyons and I like the idea that there are plenty more secrets that will be revealed to me as long as I keep showing up and showing interest. I will keep the secrets of others, and if I eventually start to explore and find my own secrets, I will most certainly be dragging as many friends as will follow to share what I have found. Will I piublicly post the beta? I would like to say no but I am betting I won't have the self control if the choice is purely mine.

    Thanks for sharing your finds so generously Luke. I have enjoyed them immensely.

    Dean



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Adam C" <cynhermit@> wrote:

    >> I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out.
    > I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to.
    > Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area.
    > So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets.
  17. mtngoat59102

    mtngoat59102 Guest

    When I saw this thread start today I was looking forward to the hail storm I figured it was about to start. The view from the cheap seats is always entertaining.

    Just another undisclosed lurker, Neil
  18. Randi

    Randi Guest

    I have no problem with either method - disclose all you want, or don't. But, I don't like to hear people whine about it, or point fingers at the "sharing types" once the cat's out of the bag. Especially if YOU had a hand in letting the cat out!   Showing photo's - telling tales, speaking of hidden treasure is all wonderful and good, but  "where there's a will (compass,map,sleuths,etc.) there's a way" to uncover the secret once it's not a secret anymore.   So don't whine about it when they come. Which they will.   It happened with Death Valley once I introduced Chris Brennen to the place, and we started exploring canyons there. For 20 years my family and I had the run of the valley, and today there's not a camp spot to be found on a Holiday weekend. Now we're looking at canyoneering limits/permits/etc.   ***BTW - PLEASE comment for the community*** Thanks Abby (Tom & Malia for the reminders) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   Abby, who is a member here and is an employee of DVNP has kindly referenced the relevant sections of the document so we can easily read through them and make informed comments. This is from a post of hers on another forum:

    The last chance to comment on Death Valley National Park's proposed Wilderness Plan is open now through October 9.

    The pdf document is posted at http://parkplanning.nps.gov/DEVAWildernessPlanEA  which is the same place you respond with your comments. (I have also uploaded the main body of the document to this post.)   You may also submit comments in writing to: Superintendent, Death Valley NP, ATTN: Wilderness Plan Comments, P.O. Box 579, Death Valley, CA 92328.

    It's a large document. The PDF pages that are relevant to canyoneering are:

    •pg 88 (Day Use Guided Canyoneering Groups: Not allowed in wilderness)

    •pg 90-91 (Day use permits would be required for all private canyoneering trips due to the limited routes available, the increasing popularity of the sport, and the challenging conditions that Death Valley's canyons present. Depending on patterns of visitor use, permits could be adapted to allocate routes on a per day, per party basis. The permit system would be phased in and would include online access to permits. Permits may be free or for a nominal cost, depending on the requirements for the permit system selected. All permits would include terms and conditions to require clean and safe canyoneering practices, environmental sensitivity, and respect for other park visitors.)

    •pg 98 (Climbing and canyoneering are both legitimate recreational pursuits, but there are limitations on where they may be appropriate and under what conditions. It is anticipated that Service wide guidance on this issue will be forthcoming. In its absence, the park will adopt the following restrictions in all three action alternatives. No new climbing hardware may be left in a fixed location; however, if an existing bolt or other hardware is unsafe, it may be replaced. Intensively bolted routes are not appropriate in wilderness. The physical altering of rock surfaces such as chiseling or the intentional removal of lichens or plants, glue reinforcement of exiting holds, and gluing of new holds is prohibited. The use of motorized drills is prohibited within wilderness and rock climbing is not allowed within 200 yards of an archaeological or cultural site.). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   So I could complain about all the people now descending canyons in DV,when it used to feel like "mine", but what's the point? The land belongs to us all. If I had some secret places I felt entitled to - well, I blew it when I let the cat out of the bag.   So do what you do, and live with the consequences of your actions. Live and let live, and all that jazz....    ~Randi

    --- On Thu, 9/27/12, ratagonia ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:

    From: ratagonia ratagonia@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] undisclosed canyons To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Thursday, September 27, 2012, 10:58 AM



     



    I think the question for regular members of the forum is:

    - is this just a sour grapes response from a few immature individuals?

    - or is this a piss-off shared by many members of the forum?

    - (other)

    Members???

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:
    Tom, there have been at least a couple of angry rants about that posted online. You probably are making someone out there jealous, but no you shouldn't stop posting about it. I enjoy the raves. >
  19. Adam,

    My suggestion is not to publish beta...yet. Share with friends until the the right time comes to let your canyon become public. Seems that a lot of canyons go through this progression. The finders gets some time to enjoy it with those he/she chooses, and understands that there will be a time when it should be released or is simply found by others who have a different view of sharing. On that note, do you want to get out and do some Zion canyons? I'm available.

    Luke, so you don't like the Sierra Canyons approach of "invite only" for their beta? It's a long tradition for many "clubs". You have to know someone or persuade the group that you are worthy. I have been on the winning and losing end of that type of arrangement, but for canyons does it have any value? Is it a method of keeping the numbers down and making sure that the ethic desired by the founder is preserved for a period? Perhaps a safety issue for some canyons? Should all clubs of all types be open to all, or is it OK that you have to earn membership into some?

    I wanted acceptance in the canyoneering group(s) because I am impatient. I wanted to learn faster and see more than I have probably earned in my short time. Does then sharing the stuff I have learned and places I have seen stroke my ego? You bet. But I must say that there is also a great joy in experiencing that "first time" feeling over and over again through the eyes of others. Any parent understands that, and that is not about ego but about the love of sharing great experiences.

    There are folks that use knowledge as power, but in the canyoneering community I have not seen it. Seems the only key to access is to show genuine interest and don't be a jackass. In my case, they obviously waived the jackass preclusion.











    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan <luke@...> wrote:
    Dean it is interesting that your entire response revolved around the show don't tell issue.
    The original poster wanted to know if he should share or not share. He did not ask if a show don't tell was the best way to go. Your response further illustrates that the real problem has nothing to to do with sharing or keeping things secret. The real issues arise when you dabble somewhere in the middle ground. Just thought I would point that out before a reply to your post.
    Sharing or keeping something totaly secret are oposite ends of the spectrum. Ideas and views can be discussed where people choose sides for various reasons and continue to consider their views. But that middle ground is where all this stuff gets twisted up.
    So to add a little banter in the "off topic" direction this thread will likely take.......
    You mention liking the show don't tell stuff since it allows you to feel accepted into the inner circle. I agree, it does give that feel. What about those people who lack the social skills to do what you do or make connections with people like you? What about those unlucky few with horrible people skills but are overall good and skilled people? Their terrible social skills can turn people off preventing an invite. What about the people who really want to see these places because of pics and stories but live say in Florida and only get to make one canyoneering pilgrimage anually and lack the community connections as a result of living so far away? So if you have good social skills, you are cool enough to be invited (in the club per se). If you live close enough to mingle frequently you can end up on one those trips too, letting you feel you've made it to the inner circle (or was that in the club again?).
    You say the show don't tell also allows you to play big shot and show off your knowledge. I agree it does. Everyone loves to have their ego stroked. Being able to share a place and play big shot does just that. The problem is, you still have the in the club feel but this time you get to be the grand puh bah! Woo hoo! And since knowledge like this is a little on the exclusive side it can very easily lend itself to being used for power in subtle ways. Like being looked up to because you have lots of valuble stuff you might pass out if I rub your back. Or the power to dictate who you think cool enough to be allowed into the canyon. Sure these things don't happen with everyone but they can easily take place. And when stuff like that does take place it is usually kept behind the scenes. Those doing this will argue their point hiding behind the same non-disclosure reasons I already mentioned in my last post. This hiding behind issues further complicates any real discussion.
    And as a side note I know everyone has an ego and likes it stroked a bit. But if you focus a lot of attention on getting to be in the inner circle or getting to show off your knowledge and skills so you feel like a big shot................. why are you canyoneering? Are you in it for the fun places and cool friends? Or are you in it because you have a desire to be looked up to or accepted? Is the canyon community and its percieved inner circle(s) being used as a tool for you to get your ego boost or are you just in it for fun, frolic and challenge with good friends? I assume the answer would be a mix between the two for most people.
    Don't get me wrong I agree there are good sides to the show don't tell. The good that I see in it is it can encourage new commers to seek out community interaction and that is great! I also know that some people enjoy sharing on an intimate level which the show don't tell stuff lends itself to. But the overall in the club or I'm the man or let's pick and choose who we think worthy side of things overshadows the good side in my opinion.
    I wish to stress one more time that this is still "off topic" from what I percieve as the original posters intent. Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should spill the beans? Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should keep his secrets tucked away? Anyone want to convince Adam that maybe he could swirl things all up together and take us through in show don't tell fasion?
    I did open up and really rant here. But let's not lose focus on the fact that Adam is asking for help with his dilema.
    Thanks for the compliment on my post writting style Dean. This one from my phone so will likely not be as nice. :)
    Luke

    Sent from my phone
    evergreen_dean <dbrooks@...> wrote:
    >Nice rant Luke! You write eloquently. Its too bad we don't hear from you more often. This musta hit a nerve.

    Personally, I do not have the internal issues you do. In my fourth year, I still consider myself fairly new to the sport and getting to see show don't tell canyons makes me feel like I have been allowed into the "inner circle". Makes me feel good. I, in turn, love playing the big shot and showing those canyons to others, often folks who have been at it longer than myself but just haven't made the effort to connect with the community that I have.

    I have one regular partner that insists on keeping all his trips small, just inviting two or three folks within his circle. I love going with him, but find it interesting that he is generally doing well beta'ed canyons. He avoid the large groups that have gotten me so well connected in such a short time, and has missed seeing many of these places. I get to be the show off and share them with him from time to time.

    On the other hand, I love to share and I have a big mouth. I would never violate a show don't tell agreement, but I do have to be careful not to tease with pictures and stories. I can barely contain my excitement when I return from a great trip in secret canyons, so my tendency is to post pictures, rave about how great a canyon was, then say "sorry, it's secret". Its gotten me hammered on the web more than once.

    I like what Sierra Canyons has done. They do not post their beta publicly, but they do have it on the web. You must get invited by someone to get access. Took me all of two days to get an invite and have folks eager to share their secrets. Again, the power of being a friendly, enthusiastic pest.

    In summary, I love show don't tell canyons, as long as I get shown. I am outgoing enough to make the connections to get into these canyons and I like the idea that there are plenty more secrets that will be revealed to me as long as I keep showing up and showing interest. I will keep the secrets of others, and if I eventually start to explore and find my own secrets, I will most certainly be dragging as many friends as will follow to share what I have found. Will I piublicly post the beta? I would like to say no but I am betting I won't have the self control if the choice is purely mine.

    Thanks for sharing your finds so generously Luke. I have enjoyed them immensely.

    Dean



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Adam C" <cynhermit@> wrote:

    >> I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out.
    > I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to.
    > Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area.
    > So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets.
  20. Luke

    Luke Guest

    Actually no I don't like the invite only approach. As I said, I do see value in forcing new people into the community and see value in the intimate sharing style (seeing the "new" in their eyes you speak of). I agree that these are good things and are a result of show don't tell, which is essentially an invite only set up. Simply because many "clubs" are set up that way does not mean I fell it is right. I still feel the exclusive nature of it can prevent good people from seeing some wonderful places and feel left out or not good enough or.. I think this exclusive nature is the bad side that outweighs the good sides.



    If things are kept secret then this topic is null and void, since no one knows about it and will never feel left out. But once pics and stories are put out publicly you have placed value (real or imagined) on these places in the minds of others. That value will entice people to want to go check em out. Put a "must be taller than this line" condition on it and you will ultimately hurt a sub set of the population.



    You said you have been on the winning and losing end of the invite only club thing. So at times you felt a warm fuzzy and accepted and other times you felt left out or unlucky or whatever. Some people have a charisma about them that allows them easy entry into clubs like that. Others lack the social skills to get invited. So some will have a good experience with it, others will always feel left out and yet others like yourself will feel the good / bad ebb and flow of it. My point is that all this stuff doesn't need to exist at all. Secret is secret and share is share. Somewhere in the middle gets all muddled just like this conversation will. From every point that is argued in this middle ground it is easy to spawn multiple other related but separate discussions. The possibilities are like counting stars.. almost endless.



    You asked if the show don't tell concept has value for canyons. I am not trying to set out the definitive works of how I view this stuff. But a quick and dirty rundown of some basic thoughts is a good way to further illustrate how crazy and unending all this middle of the road stuff can get.....



    XX -- Keeping the numbers down.

    Well if we were all spread out in more canyons then impacts could be less. Or if we limit the growing canyon community to a specific set of canyons we can hammer the hell out of the canyons and save the good stuff for ourselves. But wait, in time those new people will become accepted just as we are accepted now and the "preserved" canyons will see us and the new canyoneers that come of age. And they will eventually invite their friends too. So in the end even the show don't tell stuff doesn't really protect a canyon. Secrecy can possibly protect it? But this middle ground stuff eventually buckles and no matter how you slice it the canyon gets traffic. It is just time you are buying not a true solution.



    XX -- Passing the ethics along.

    Now that is a difficult thing to do no matter how you share or don't share a canyon. Again time is all you are buying. You can pass on the ethics all you want person to person but eventually a friend invites a friend who doesn't get it. Then that friend returns with other friends and poof you have bad ethics in the mix. A rock fin in the Dantes is a great example of that. A fin that some people use as an anchor then flick the rope off of it, is now almost sawed in half. Someone used the fin as an anchor then decided to not flick the rope off the fin and instead pull the rope over it. Well I got a picture showing this thing is now almost in half. And this was found just BEFORE the beta was published. So sharing via show don't tell allowed ethics to be shared person to person but eventually it does break down. So again it is a way to buy time but not a real solution.



    XX -- Safety issue for some canyons.

    Well there is no real cure for that except secrecy either. If it is secret and no one goes then everyone is safe right? Or do they just run over and do Choprock and be safe there? Show don't tell still eventually breaks down and you have unqualified people in the canyons. It is hard to convey all the safety concerns and dictate skill requirements via word of mouth over the Chinese telephone of the show don't tell world. Sure you could hype the canyon as harder than it is just to keep people out and safer. But what happens when people start to realize you make it sound hard to keep them safe. Well people start to not trust what you tell them about safety or difficulty thinking you are amping it up. Kinda like crying wolf. At least with written beta you can attempt to keep the safety and skill stuff included with the information. A person who was shown a place via show don't tell may remember the words "blah blah blah" when they try to think about what they were told about safety but remember all the "holy cow that was cool" moments while on their visit. So safety can get lost in translation. With written beta it is possible that people will over look or glaze over when reading safety warnings, but at least it was there and they can't blame a friend for not giving them the whole story. I think show don't tell is actually inferior to written beta for safety reasons.



    XX -- Protecting the environment.

    Lets say a canyon has these wonderful little frogs or some really nice ferns. Well let's keep people out so we can protect it. Wait protect it for who or what? Everyone else? While me and my group keep revisiting it because it is so cool but keeping others out to protect it? Now that sounds fair and very un-exclusive to me..... NOT!



    Or should we ALL stay out of it to protect it? Well what are we protecting it for if we do that? If the special item say a plant is one of the rarest on the planet and shown only to exist in that specific canyon, then maybe we have a reason for all of us to stay out (yup everyone). But that rarely is the case. Saying you don't get to see many of these is NOT the same as saying this is an endangered species. So if I am not trampling the last one on the planet, then who am I protecting it for? Mother nature herself? Well um she don't care in a sentient being kind of way. So I am protecting it from other people for other people. Wait if a tree falls in the woods but no one hears it.... Last time I checked we are not from outer space visiting some new planet. I live here and from what I can tell my entire race evolved here, so I kinda am part of that mother nature thing. That doesn't give me permission to go trample everything simply because I live here but the reality is we rarely have a case where we are killing the last remaining few of anything.



    Poe is a great example of this. There are some cool vegetated spots there and some crawdads that you don't get to see everyday in a canyon setting. While in there I thought wow maybe this needs protecting since it is so rare. But I started to think seriously about it then went home to play on google earth a bit. There are other draingages out there with big alcove hanging garden like areas just like Poe. The difference between say Poe and these other drainages is they appear to have very little fun tech canyon just above them. I would be willing to place money on a bet that there are other places right next door to Poe with the same life stuff in em. Even Halls Creek had lots of vegetation and would likely have similar stuff in it. Will we all go trample those? Nope because there is no tech fun. Us canyoneers are after tech fun that's it. This not so common stuff does exist in neighboring areas and is in no danger of being wiped out by our travels. I live here and feel it is ok to go see things as long as I am not wiping it all out. Those who know me would classify me more as a tree hugger type. But I do feel the tree hugging type fails to look at the concept that not only do I live here, but I am just as much a part of this nature stuff as that lizard who just kicked my ass at climbing the canyon wall along side me.



    XX -- Leaving exploring places

    I have gotten a lot of joy from exploring and have been very greatful for the invites I have gotten to go do just that. Lot's of exploring in Death Valley with Rick's Crew, I little dabble in my own explore for Strike 2, invites for exploratory with John, and even some joint exploring with John in a canyon we both were scoping out independently and decided to hook up (to be shared when I get time to write it up). These moments have brought joy to my life. But leaving it open for exploring works only if you take the secret route again. If you go with show don't tell or some variation of it then the info slowly leaks and poof you have people with info and the exploring is gone. John brings a good point in that the remote places lend themselves to this more easily. But all in all if it isn't left SECRET then the flow of info happens just at a slower pace. For now there are lots of little slots near major roads that looky loos like myself can dabble at trying to find a fun route to discover (Strike 2 is a great example as it is short and has a road at top and bottom). But eventually these will be eaten up and those adventurous souls will start looking farther out and eventually cover the remote ground and it will end up shared. So it is a nice way to buy time but a real solution, not really.







    Dean you raised some questions so went with them enough to further illustrate the point I made in my original post. That point is the middle ground has a lot of gray areas and can be argued to death and will never die. So while you may feel this way, I feel that way and our neighbor feels yet another way; it all comes right back to this middle ground being a muddled, mixed up mess of views from both sides getting twisted all together. Lots of passion there huh?



    I realize that my opinions are not the end all be all correct views. I also realize that my views have and likely will still change over time. I have recently had a little internal challenge on the concept of sharing due to safety concerns with specific canyons. In the end I ended up right back where I was and feel sharing is the best policy. My point is I do actually listen when I feel myself challenged internally. I feel a lot of people do the same thing and ultimately come to a conclusion very different from mine. I respect those around me, rather I agree with them or not. I hope others can extend the same courtesy to me. I enjoy an occasional discussion that challenges me with someone who is open to being challenged as well and who is not out to force their agenda on me.



    So all in all I still feel we can play together in areas where our conflicting views don't get in the way. Then play separately when we have areas where our views will clash. What you do is your choice and what I do is mine. All people will never view everything the same way. Differences are inevitable and if you are only friends with those who have the same view as yourself, then you may find you have a very small set of friends.



    The best thing we can do to get along is be open about our views and willing to discuss them with no hostility in the mix. Airing our views can help determine when and how we play together so we all love what we are doing. So here is a public insight into a tip of my views. Sure hope I didn't lose friends over this. J



    Luke



    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of evergreen_dean Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:13 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons





    Adam,

    My suggestion is not to publish beta...yet. Share with friends until the the right time comes to let your canyon become public. Seems that a lot of canyons go through this progression. The finders gets some time to enjoy it with those he/she chooses, and understands that there will be a time when it should be released or is simply found by others who have a different view of sharing. On that note, do you want to get out and do some Zion canyons? I'm available.

    Luke, so you don't like the Sierra Canyons approach of "invite only" for their beta? It's a long tradition for many "clubs". You have to know someone or persuade the group that you are worthy. I have been on the winning and losing end of that type of arrangement, but for canyons does it have any value? Is it a method of keeping the numbers down and making sure that the ethic desired by the founder is preserved for a period? Perhaps a safety issue for some canyons? Should all clubs of all types be open to all, or is it OK that you have to earn membership into some?

    I wanted acceptance in the canyoneering group(s) because I am impatient. I wanted to learn faster and see more than I have probably earned in my short time. Does then sharing the stuff I have learned and places I have seen stroke my ego? You bet. But I must say that there is also a great joy in experiencing that "first time" feeling over and over again through the eyes of others. Any parent understands that, and that is not about ego but about the love of sharing great experiences.

    There are folks that use knowledge as power, but in the canyoneering community I have not seen it. Seems the only key to access is to show genuine interest and don't be a jackass. In my case, they obviously waived the jackass preclusion.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , Luke Galyan <luke@...> wrote:
    Dean it is interesting that your entire response revolved around the show don't tell issue.
    The original poster wanted to know if he should share or not share. He did not ask if a show don't tell was the best way to go. Your response further illustrates that the real problem has nothing to to do with sharing or keeping things secret. The real issues arise when you dabble somewhere in the middle ground. Just thought I would point that out before a reply to your post.
    Sharing or keeping something totaly secret are oposite ends of the spectrum. Ideas and views can be discussed where people choose sides for various reasons and continue to consider their views. But that middle ground is where all this stuff gets twisted up.
    So to add a little banter in the "off topic" direction this thread will likely take.......
    You mention liking the show don't tell stuff since it allows you to feel accepted into the inner circle. I agree, it does give that feel. What about those people who lack the social skills to do what you do or make connections with people like you? What about those unlucky few with horrible people skills but are overall good and skilled people? Their terrible social skills can turn people off preventing an invite. What about the people who really want to see these places because of pics and stories but live say in Florida and only get to make one canyoneering pilgrimage anually and lack the community connections as a result of living so far away? So if you have good social skills, you are cool enough to be invited (in the club per se). If you live close enough to mingle frequently you can end up on one those trips too, letting you feel you've made it to the inner circle (or was that in the club again?).
    You say the show don't tell also allows you to play big shot and show off your knowledge. I agree it does. Everyone loves to have their ego stroked. Being able to share a place and play big shot does just that. The problem is, you still have the in the club feel but this time you get to be the grand puh bah! Woo hoo! And since knowledge like this is a little on the exclusive side it can very easily lend itself to being used for power in subtle ways. Like being looked up to because you have lots of valuble stuff you might pass out if I rub your back. Or the power to dictate who you think cool enough to be allowed into the canyon. Sure these things don't happen with everyone but they can easily take place. And when stuff like that does take place it is usually kept behind the scenes. Those doing this will argue their point hiding behind the same non-disclosure reasons I already mentioned in my last post. This hiding behind issues further complicates any real ! discussion.
    And as a side note I know everyone has an ego and likes it stroked a bit. But if you focus a lot of attention on getting to be in the inner circle or getting to show off your knowledge and skills so you feel like a big shot................. why are you canyoneering? Are you in it for the fun places and cool friends? Or are you in it because you have a desire to be looked up to or accepted? Is the canyon community and its percieved inner circle(s) being used as a tool for you to get your ego boost or are you just in it for fun, frolic and challenge with good friends? I assume the answer would be a mix between the two for most people.
    Don't get me wrong I agree there are good sides to the show don't tell. The good that I see in it is it can encourage new commers to seek out community interaction and that is great! I also know that some people enjoy sharing on an intimate level which the show don't tell stuff lends itself to. But the overall in the club or I'm the man or let's pick and choose who we think worthy side of things overshadows the good side in my opinion.
    I wish to stress one more time that this is still "off topic" from what I percieve as the original posters intent. Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should spill the beans? Anyone want to chime in with their views on why Adam should keep his secrets tucked away? Anyone want to convince Adam that maybe he could swirl things all up together and take us through in show don't tell fasion?
    I did open up and really rant here. But let's not lose focus on the fact that Adam is asking for help with his dilema.
    Thanks for the compliment on my post writting style Dean. This one from my phone so will likely not be as nice. :)
    Luke

    Sent from my phone
    evergreen_dean <dbrooks@...> wrote:
    >Nice rant Luke! You write eloquently. Its too bad we don't hear from you more often. This musta hit a nerve.

    Personally, I do not have the internal issues you do. In my fourth year, I still consider myself fairly new to the sport and getting to see show don't tell canyons makes me feel like I have been allowed into the "inner circle". Makes me feel good. I, in turn, love playing the big shot and showing those canyons to others, often folks who have been at it longer than myself but just haven't made the effort to connect with the community that I have.

    I have one regular partner that insists on keeping all his trips small, just inviting two or three folks within his circle. I love going with him, but find it interesting that he is generally doing well beta'ed canyons. He avoid the large groups that have gotten me so well connected in such a short time, and has missed seeing many of these places. I get to be the show off and share them with him from time to time.

    On the other hand, I love to share and I have a big mouth. I would never violate a show don't tell agreement, but I do have to be careful not to tease with pictures and stories. I can barely contain my excitement when I return from a great trip in secret canyons, so my tendency is to post pictures, rave about how great a canyon was, then say "sorry, it's secret". Its gotten me hammered on the web more than once.

    I like what Sierra Canyons has done. They do not post their beta publicly, but they do have it on the web. You must get invited by someone to get access. Took me all of two days to get an invite and have folks eager to share their secrets. Again, the power of being a friendly, enthusiastic pest.

    In summary, I love show don't tell canyons, as long as I get shown. I am outgoing enough to make the connections to get into these canyons and I like the idea that there are plenty more secrets that will be revealed to me as long as I keep showing up and showing interest. I will keep the secrets of others, and if I eventually start to explore and find my own secrets, I will most certainly be dragging as many friends as will follow to share what I have found. Will I piublicly post the beta? I would like to say no but I am betting I won't have the self control if the choice is purely mine.

    Thanks for sharing your finds so generously Luke. I have enjoyed them immensely.

    Dean



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com> , "Adam C" <cynhermit@> wrote:

    >> I've recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons "secret"; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both selfish(wanting solitude-hence my "hermit" label) and well founded(i.e. biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later the secret will be out.
    > I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present) and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to.
    > Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be offended. Then again, many will enjoy the "new" canyons. Perhaps some pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area.
    > So, I'm asking to hear the community member's opinions before I tell my secrets.
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