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to bolt or not to bolt

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by mission2swim, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. mission2swim

    mission2swim Guest

    I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many of us feel safer using them, so if you don't like them don't use them, just stop pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more than 10 times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying these canyons.
  2. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mission2swim" <mission2swim@...> wrote:

    > I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many of us feel > safer using them, so if you don't like them don't use them, just stop > pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more than 10 > times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying these canyons.

    Where have you replaced bolts? Ten times? I can only think of one canyon where placing and pulling wars have occurred and most of that fiasco pre dates this group and involved no one on this board to my knowledge. Fill us in please. R
  3. Tim Hoover

    Tim Hoover Guest

    I try to avoid responding to trolls, but it's been a frustrating day at work so...

    Actually it's your replacing them that's destroying the canyons.

    If you feel safer with metal rungs installed at every downclimb should we just ignore those too? Perhaps it would be better to stick to canyons that are more aligned to your skill level than to alter those that aren't.

    That's what I do and there is no shortage of great canyons to explore with that limitation.

    Tim

    --- On Thu, 1/22/09, mission2swim mission2swim@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > From: mission2swim mission2swim@yahoo.com
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] to bolt or not to bolt > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 3:46 PM > I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many > of us feel > safer using them, so if you don't like them don't > use them, just stop > pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more > than 10 > times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying > these canyons.
    > ---
    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to > make reading and searching easier. You can use the > following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon > Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH > = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE > = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the > abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?
    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup > page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the > &amp;amp;quot;Edit My > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery > option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups > Links
    >
  4. Lee Eismann

    Lee Eismann Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover wrote:
    I try to avoid responding to trolls

    Did you ever consider that the person might not be?

    I am not trolling.....

    > Actually it's your replacing them that's destroying the canyons.

    Huh? That's not been my personal experience.

    We had two glue-in bolts pulled here in a local SoCal canyon, on two different drops where two glue-ins had been installed for each rappel - and the pullers left some very ugly scars. Please note - pulling a 14mm Petzl glue-in takes more effort and damages more rock than others.

    But when they were replaced, the old bolt holes were filled and patched. In other words, replacing them actually restored the canyon to a better state.

    > If you feel safer with metal rungs installed at every downclimb, > should we just ignore those too?

    A dozen or more metal rungs running the entire length of the drop would be a bit more unsightly than 2 bolts at the top of the drop. I hope you're not trying to be a troll with that remark.

    > Perhaps it would be better to stick to canyons that are more > aligned to your skill level than to alter those that aren't.

    There could be many reasons. Perhaps this person regularly takes newbies through this particular canyon, where there are few natural anchors, and the ones that do exist would require sequencing or awkward starts. It is much quicker and safer to take a group of newbies through a canyon if there are bolts at the drops where natural anchors are not abundant or difficult to construct.

    > That's what I do and there is no shortage of great canyons to > explore with that limitation.

    Not everyone has the same ethics as you, or limitations Maybe this person is limited in the canyons in their geographical location. Maybe they don't have the same economical resources that you do. Maybe they mentor a lot of newbies or scouts. Please put yourself in their shoes for a moment.
  5. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lee Eismann" <lee@...> wrote: > There could be many reasons. Perhaps this person regularly takes > newbies through this particular canyon, where there are few natural > anchors, and the ones that do exist would require sequencing or > awkward starts.

    Hi Lee...Its my hope Mission2swim will tell us where. Should reveal a lot. Perhaps we can support him in cause if things are as you speculate. I guess it is all guess work until he wades in. We should get a photo record of this bolt/chop war damage, don't you agree?

    > Maybe they mentor a lot of newbies or scouts. Please put yourself in > their shoes for a moment.

    Hope to. R
  6. mission2swim

    mission2swim Guest

    Tim, I guess my skill level isn't up to your standards having just started while in college back in the 70's. But I do drive to the canyons in a truck with AIRBAGS and my SAFETY BELT on I know that with your skills you surely have removed your air bag and would never wear a safety belt while driving. I believe it must have to do with my higher evolutionary stage where humans want to continue to live for another day. I climb using ropes and harnesses that could lift a Mack Truck, would always use a stout tree or large rock over any bolt, but would have to be a moron to use a deadman anchor over a bolt. Like you said, your work is frustrating for you. So here is the deal, if you feel the need to remove the old webbing do it. Then use your deadman anchor, downclimb, or whatever suits your fancy but leave my bolts alone. I wouldn't go as so far as ask for safety rungs but I don't want to have someone get hurt and then loss ALL access. Tried Base jumping in a national park recently? And as for sticking to canyons that are at my skill level, I find that the bolts are most often chipped out are in the most basic of canyons where skill levels are at the lowest. It is a real pain to go with a group of newbies and have to replace bolts every time, hours and hours wasted, so instead teaching skills entire trips are spent drilling and gluing in bolts. If you are so dead set on canyoneering where no one uses or has used bolts, I'm sure almost any canyon more than a one day hike in from a road will meet that criteria, so more power to you. As for me, I'll always have my trusty cordless hammer drill.



    In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover <frisbeedog02@...> wrote:
    I try to avoid responding to trolls, but it's been a frustrating day at work so...
    Actually it's your replacing them that's destroying the canyons.
    If you feel safer with metal rungs installed at every downclimb should we just ignore those too? Perhaps it would be better to stick to canyons that are more aligned to your skill level than to alter those that aren't.
    That's what I do and there is no shortage of great canyons to explore with that limitation.
    Tim
    > --- On Thu, 1/22/09, mission2swim <mission2swim@...> wrote:
    > From: mission2swim <mission2swim@...
    > Subject: [from Canyons Group] to bolt or not to bolt
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    > Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 3:46 PM
    I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many
    of us feel
    safer using them, so if you don't like them don't
    use them, just stop
    pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more
    than 10
    times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying
    these canyons.


    ---

    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to
    make reading and searching easier. You can use the
    following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon
    Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH
    = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE
    = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the
    abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup
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    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the
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    Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery
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    Changes&amp;amp;quot;.

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  7. Courtney

    Courtney Guest

    Aaah, bolting ethics. I don't think we've discussed this before...!

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mission2swim" <mission2swim@...> wrote:
    Tim, > I guess my skill level isn't up to your standards having just started > while in college back in the 70's. > But I do drive to the canyons in a truck with AIRBAGS and my SAFETY > BELT on I know that with your skills you surely have removed your air > bag and would never wear a safety belt while driving. > I believe it must have to do with my higher evolutionary stage where > humans want to continue to live for another day. > I climb using ropes and harnesses that could lift a Mack Truck, would > always use a stout tree or large rock over any bolt, but would have to > be a moron to use a deadman anchor over a bolt. > Like you said, your work is frustrating for you. > So here is the deal, if you feel the need to remove the old webbing > do it. Then use your deadman anchor, downclimb, or whatever suits your > fancy but leave my bolts alone. > I wouldn't go as so far as ask for safety rungs but I don't want to > have someone get hurt and then loss ALL access. Tried Base jumping in > a national park recently? > And as for sticking to canyons that are at my skill level, I find that > the bolts are most often chipped out are in the most basic of canyons > where skill levels are at the lowest. > It is a real pain to go with a group of newbies and have to replace > bolts every time, hours and hours wasted, so instead teaching skills > entire trips are spent drilling and gluing in bolts. > If you are so dead set on canyoneering where no one uses or has used > bolts, I'm sure almost any canyon more than a one day hike in from a > road will meet that criteria, so more power to you. > As for me, I'll always have my trusty cordless hammer drill.

    > In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover <frisbeedog02@> wrote:

    I try to avoid responding to trolls, but it's been a frustrating day > at work so...

    Actually it's your replacing them that's destroying the canyons.

    If you feel safer with metal rungs installed at every downclimb > should we just ignore those too? Perhaps it would be better to stick > to canyons that are more aligned to your skill level than to alter > those that aren't.

    That's what I do and there is no shortage of great canyons to > explore with that limitation.

    Tim


    --- On Thu, 1/22/09, mission2swim <mission2swim@> wrote:

    > From: mission2swim <mission2swim@

    Subject: [from Canyons Group] to bolt or not to bolt
    > To: Yahoo Canyons Group

    Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 3:46 PM
    > I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many
    > of us feel
    > safer using them, so if you don't like them don't
    > use them, just stop
    > pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more
    > than 10
    > times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying
    > these canyons.



    > ---


    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to
    > make reading and searching easier. You can use the
    > following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon
    > Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH
    > = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE
    > = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the
    > abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:


    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?


    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup
    > page on yahoo:
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/


    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the
    > &amp;amp;quot;Edit My
    > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery
    > option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save
    > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.


    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email
    > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.


    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you
    > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups
    > Links
  8. Please remember your putting YOUR bolts into OUR rock...

    mission2swim wrote:
    > Tim, > I guess my skill level isn't up to your standards having just started > while in college back in the 70's. > But I do drive to the canyons in a truck with AIRBAGS and my SAFETY > BELT on I know that with your skills you surely have removed your air > bag and would never wear a safety belt while driving. > I believe it must have to do with my higher evolutionary stage where > humans want to continue to live for another day. > I climb using ropes and harnesses that could lift a Mack Truck, would > always use a stout tree or large rock over any bolt, but would have to > be a moron to use a deadman anchor over a bolt. > Like you said, your work is frustrating for you. > So here is the deal, if you feel the need to remove the old webbing > do it. Then use your deadman anchor, downclimb, or whatever suits your > fancy but leave my bolts alone. > I wouldn't go as so far as ask for safety rungs but I don't want to > have someone get hurt and then loss ALL access. Tried Base jumping in > a national park recently? > And as for sticking to canyons that are at my skill level, I find that > the bolts are most often chipped out are in the most basic of canyons > where skill levels are at the lowest. > It is a real pain to go with a group of newbies and have to replace > bolts every time, hours and hours wasted, so instead teaching skills > entire trips are spent drilling and gluing in bolts. > If you are so dead set on canyoneering where no one uses or has used > bolts, I'm sure almost any canyon more than a one day hike in from a > road will meet that criteria, so more power to you. > As for me, I'll always have my trusty cordless hammer drill.
    In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com>, Tim > Hoover <frisbeedog02@...> wrote: >
    > I try to avoid responding to trolls, but it's been a frustrating day > at work so... >
    > Actually it's your replacing them that's destroying the canyons. >
    > If you feel safer with metal rungs installed at every downclimb > should we just ignore those too? Perhaps it would be better to stick > to canyons that are more aligned to your skill level than to alter > those that aren't. >
    > That's what I do and there is no shortage of great canyons to > explore with that limitation. >
    > Tim >

    > --- On Thu, 1/22/09, mission2swim <mission2swim@...> wrote: >

    From: mission2swim <mission2swim@...

    Subject: [from Canyons Group] to bolt or not to bolt >
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com

    Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 3:46 PM >
    I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many >
    of us feel >
    safer using them, so if you don't like them don't >
    use them, just stop >
    pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more >
    than 10 >
    times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying >
    these canyons. >
    >
    >
    --- >
    >
    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to >
    make reading and searching easier. You can use the >
    following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon >
    Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH >
    = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE >
    = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the >
    abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as: >
    >
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working? >
    >
    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup >
    page on yahoo: >
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

    >
    This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the >
    &amp;amp;quot;Edit My >
    Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery >
    option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save >
    Changes&amp;amp;quot;. >
    >
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email >
    to you each day summarizing that day's messages. >
    >
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you >
    must visit the web site to view messages. Groups >
    Links >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    --

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  9. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "mission2swim" <mission2swim@...> wrote: in college back in the 70's.

    Welcome to the group Terry. You dated yourself. Guess we are peers.

    > I climb using ropes and harnesses that could lift a Mack Truck, would> always use a stout tree or large rock over any bolt, but would have to> be a moron to use a deadman anchor over a bolt.

    Ahhh, the poor deadman. So maligned. It gets dissed all the time. Used constantly as the prime representative of natural anchors, by those who advocate fixed anchors. Sure gets a lot of press for an anchor type that is very rare. Less than 2 or 3% of the natural anchors? Wild guess, but, perhaps neighborhood. I have had the good fortune to visit a few canyons over the years and after 15 minutes of thought, I have come up with 8 deadman anchors I can think of and more than half of them are in canyons presently not betaed. Anybody want to play? How many and where are these land mines called deadmen anchors located?

    Now I'm not the anchor man in my group, but I do pay attention to what isn't over my head and these scary, detested deadmen anchors....Not sure they could hold a mack truck, but they can and do fall into the category of bomber quite often. The problem with them is how hard they are to inspect and with canyons that are seeing a lot of traffic, this is problematic. A legit concern, for sure. Ah but just the other day, there was an article from Oz and a discussion on the fact that bolts are not just hard to inspect, but impossible to inspect and one failed. Here it is.... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/49040 Climbing shock load versus static rap, admittedly, but certainly wouldn't have passed that mack truck test either. Think AJ pulled a bolt out with his hand this last October. I have done the same a few times over the years too. Bolt out, with a slight tug of the hand. The safety issue is not black and white. No anchor offers guarantees.

    I find that > the bolts are most often chipped out are in the most basic of canyons> where skill levels are at the lowest.

    Terry. Where do you do most of your canyoneering? San Gabrials? Colo Plateau? Arizona? Where are you seeing all these bolts chopped from? I see a steady, but relatively slow growth in the volume and range of new bolts, but for the life of me, can't think of too many places that have had any bolts chopped. PLEASE, help me out here. It would really add meat to your argument too. Ram
  10. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:57 AM, adkramoo adkramoo@aol.com> wrote: Where do you do most of your canyoneering? ... Where are you seeing all these bolts chopped from? I see a steady, but relatively slow growth in the volume and range of new bolts, but for the life of me, can't think of too many places that have had any bolts chopped. PLEASE, help me out here. It would really add meat to your argument too.

    x2
  11. Tim Hoover

    Tim Hoover Guest

    --- On Thu, 1/22/09, mission2swim mission2swim@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > From: mission2swim mission2swim@yahoo.com
    Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] to bolt or not to bolt > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 11:01 PM > Tim, > I guess my skill level isn't up to your standards > having just started > while in college back in the 70's.

    While I'm certainly impressed that you went to college, the mere fact that you are old doesn't imply anything about your skill level. I have no idea what your skill level is, nor is it relevant. Canyons exist both above and below the skill level of everyone.

    > But I do drive to the canyons in a truck with AIRBAGS and > my SAFETY > BELT on I know that with your skills you surely have > removed your air > bag and would never wear a safety belt while driving.

    Well, I certainly wouldn't make permanent alterations to anyone else's vehicle just for my percieved safety issues.

    > I believe it must have to do with my higher evolutionary > stage where > humans want to continue to live for another day.

    My guess is that it wasn't biology you studied back in the 70's.

    > I climb using ropes and harnesses that could lift a Mack > Truck, would > always use a stout tree or large rock over any bolt, but > would have to > be a moron to use a deadman anchor over a bolt.

    I think your ignorance is showing here. Neither is intrinsically safer.

    > Like you said, your work is frustrating for you. > So here is the deal, if you feel the need to remove the old > webbing > do it. Then use your deadman anchor, downclimb, or whatever > suits your > fancy but leave my bolts alone. > I wouldn't go as so far as ask for safety rungs

    Maybe not, but would you object if someone else did?

    > but I don't want to > have someone get hurt and then loss ALL access.

    Resource destruction is another great way to lose access.

    > Tried Base jumping in > a national park recently? > And as for sticking to canyons that are at my skill level, > I find that > the bolts are most often chipped out are in the most basic > of canyons > where skill levels are at the lowest. > It is a real pain to go with a group of newbies and have to > replace > bolts every time, hours and hours wasted, so instead > teaching skills > entire trips are spent drilling and gluing in bolts.

    Maybe you should be teaching anchoring skills, or at least have someone along who can.

    > If you are so dead set on canyoneering where no one uses or > has used > bolts, I'm sure almost any canyon more than a one day > hike in from a > road will meet that criteria, so more power to you.

    It's not that I don't want bolts in the canyons I descend. It's that I don't support resource destruction in ANY canyons. Remember, you started this by claiming that you had placed bolts more than 10 times in certain canyons.

    > As for me, I'll always have my trusty cordless hammer > drill. >

    Yes I'm sure you will. I'm also sure that certain people will persist in destroying natural areas with their ATVs. That is why I disagree with people like Ram and Tom who think that education is the answer.

    OK - sorry for the continued flogging of this dead horse. I give up (At least for now).

    Tim
  12. Shaun

    Shaun Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon <onkaluna@...> wrote:
    On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:57 AM, adkramoo <adkramoo@...> wrote: > Where do you do most of your canyoneering? ... Where are you seeing > all these bolts chopped from? I > see a steady, but relatively slow growth in the volume and range of > new bolts, but for the life of me, can't think of too many places that > have had any bolts chopped. PLEASE, help me out here. It would really > add meat to your argument too.
    x2 >

    x3
  13. Looks like a challenge has been issued!!

    bruce from bryce

    On 1/22/09, mission2swim mission2swim@yahoo.com> wrote:
    I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many of us feel > safer using them, so if you don't like them don't use them, just stop > pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more than 10 > times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying these canyons.
    >
  14. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Find the Troll?

    T

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman <weabruce@...> wrote:
    Looks like a challenge has been issued!!
    bruce from bryce
    > On 1/22/09, mission2swim <mission2swim@...> wrote:

    I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many of us feel
    safer using them, so if you don't like them don't use them, just stop
    pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more than 10
    times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying these canyons.



    > >
  15. bary bruner

    bary bruner Guest

    Is our recreational activity more important than preservation of the resource? Might there be a system in the future that provides protection without drilling the rock (don't be stealing my suction cup idea!)? I think someday the bolting era will be looked upon with regret; regret that we didn't have more respect, more skill, more patience.









    On 1/22/09, mission2swim <mission2swim@ yahoo.com> wrote:
    I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many of us feel > safer using them, so if you don't like them don't use them, just stop > pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more than 10 > times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying these canyons.
    >



















  16. Kurt

    Kurt Guest

    My only question about any of this is: Does Ram have like a Red Phone so when the word "bolt" comes up on yahoo, calls automatically go out? ----- Original Message ----- From: bary bruner To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] to bolt or not to bolt

    Is our recreational activity more important than preservation of the resource? Might there be a system in the future that provides protection without drilling the rock (don't be stealing my suction cup idea!)? I think someday the bolting era will be looked upon with regret; regret that we didn't have more respect, more skill, more patience.

    On 1/22/09, mission2swim <mission2swim@ yahoo.com> wrote: > > I know some of you don't like bolted canyons, but many of us feel > safer using them, so if you don't like them don't use them, just stop > pulling them. I have replaced bolts in some canyons more than 10 > times, so your pulling the bolts is quickly destroying these canyons. > > >









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  17. restrac2000

    restrac2000 Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner <barylbruner@...> wrote:
    Is our recreational activity more important than preservation of the resource? Might there be a system in the future that provides protection without drilling the rock (don't be stealing my suction cup idea!)? I think someday the bolting era will be looked upon with regret; regret that we didn't have more respect, more skill, more patience. >

    I am all for the growth in natural anchor technology/techniques and the willingness of some to utilize and educate others on the subject. Yet as is so often the case this comes down to subjective arguments that can become entrenched in conflicting camps on issues. The reality I think we face is that most of enjoy and advocate for a moderate and appropriate use of bolts (defining those is ambiguous, but I do believe the canyons provide evidence of this conclusion, more so than our midwinter discussions).

    I would also like to advocate this comes down an issue of conservation not preservation (acceptable rate of change vs. no change). Each technique employs benefits and consequences that are best suited to various canyons based upon the level and type of landscape and experience we are trying to conserve. Main point, there is some form of impact in almost every canyon we do (with the rare exception of complete and successful ghosting, if such a thing exists) whether employing natural or artificial anchors. What values we are seeking and what levels/types of impact we are comfortable with drives the most centric of folks to their decisions.

    I personally doubt that we will look on upon the "bolting era" with regret because I think the environment and desired outcomes will always (oops, how I hate imperatives) support the use of such technology to some degree. I think more than likely we will look back with some disdain that we weren't able to reach compromises and tolerance for differing views faster than we have. That said, we are not always the most efficient beast at resolving social conflicts. That and I think most of us fairly comfortable and content with the state of canyon environments and anchors. Generalizations and social estimates are ... IMHO.

    I wonder if we have a issue similar to what biologist see as "hawk and dove"? Maybe to much of a reach.

    Phillip
  18. Rick Pratt

    Rick Pratt Guest

    >I think someday the bolting era will be looked upon with regret; regret that we didn't have more respect, more skill, more patience.



    I think we will have (or do have, or should have) more regret regarding rope grooves than bolts. I may never go down Spry Canyon (?) after seeing the photos some of you have shared. Those grooves should be illegal and those that assisted in their making should be sent into the canyon to repair them. If I am ever in a rope groove situation again great effort will be exerted to limit the damage. Will I bolt it? Probably not since I haven't the skill but I will think of some way to repay my debt.



  19. desertres

    desertres Guest

    I did a search and it yielded 2783 posts. I guess bolt removal sort of sneaks by. Engelstead was mentioned, and there are posts of bolts removed in unnamed places(and thats just for recent history).

    I think the issue brought up is drops that can be downclimed/jumped but present a safety risk to others. And for those places, I can think of many. Exactly when a drop is a legit rappel is anyone's opinion. The most pressing concern is that bolts are being put into these places for guide services...thereby distorting canyoneering since the activity includes room for climbing...or jumping. So these bolts are really taking away from canyoneering and really implying that climbing or jumping(or possible natural anchors) is inherently dangerous. When a person's safety is bolts only, thats the dangerous proposition.

    If the local ethics allow for 'educational' canyons, I would think the education is supposed to be about rigging on bolts & natural anchors. However, there is a good chance if the bolt is removed that the drop is considered to be within a wide range of climbing ability,has a safer natural anchor, or violates local ethics. Best of luck in dealing with mad bolt chopper...but you will have to convince that the mad bolt chopper is not doing you a favor...I dont think Im the only one who just passes by bad bolts and doesnt remove them...just saying..dont want anyone to get hurt.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Shaun" <trackrunner83@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon <onkaluna@> wrote:

    On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:57 AM, adkramoo <adkramoo@> wrote:
    Where do you do most of your canyoneering? ... Where are you seeing
    all these bolts chopped from? I
    see a steady, but relatively slow growth in the volume and range of
    new bolts, but for the life of me, can't think of too many places that
    have had any bolts chopped. PLEASE, help me out here. It would really
    add meat to your argument too.

    x2

    x3 >
  20. A.J.

    A.J. Guest

    I think lots of places are appropriate for bolts; mostly in C canyons or canyons that don't have anchor material readily available. As usual, it seems most people are at least open to the idea that we should see what solution fits that particular location. Many folks just think it dumb to place a bolt when it's next to a huge chokestone or similar natural anchor.

    As to a bolt being safer, definitely disagree. ANY and ALL anchors need to be inspected. Bolt anchors, when placed correctly, can be safe; but they are generally harder to inspect as well. As Ram pointed out, accidents can and do happen; as evidenced by the sad story down under. Yes Ram, I have pulled out more than one bolt by hand; and the latest one was in Cricket in October. Always check your anchors; doesn't matter which kind; and back them up whenever possible. Even if it's just a meat anchor for the first few folks...

    However, to swim-boy's comments. He seems to just be wanting to stir things up as he has had opportunity to give details of the canyons and his use of those canyons (even if he didn't want to offer his name.) Instead, he chose to just try to further instigate by demeaning Tim's comments. (Nice reply by the way Tim.)

    So swim, if you want to have a discussion; give us some background. Many have said they would listen (I'll add x4), so let's hear where the issues are and maybe we can save some effort on both sides of the arguement.

    Kurt: > My only question about any of this is: > Does Ram have like a Red Phone so when the word "bolt" comes up on > yahoo, calls automatically go out?

    That's funny, and how it seems to be true. ;) Thanks for all your efforts and diplomacy Ram. You add a lot to the community.

    Take care, A.J.
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