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Tech Tip: Answered The RIGHT way to do most anything...

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by ratagonia, Jun 20, 2016.

  1. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Mount Carmel, Utah
    interesting article:

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/resc...ui-mccurley?trk=hb_ntf_MEGAPHONE_ARTICLE_POST

    Not exactly canyoneering, but it sure seems applicable...

    Loui McCurley
    Author, Speaker, Executive at Pigeon Mountain Industries, Inc

    Follow
    Rescue Professional or Rescue Nazi?
    May 29, 2016

    A couple of years ago, at the International Technical Rescue Symposium (www.itrsonline.org) a highly respected individual in the technical rescue world did one of the most respectable things a man can do. He stood up and said something along the lines of "for all of you who have taken my rescue classes over the years, I just want to say... I'm sorry! I've recently done some new testing, and some of the stuff I've been teaching as absolute for the last 20 years... really isn't!"

    ITRS participants have long had a term for people who prescribe technical rescue tools and equipment like a mathematical formula: Rescue Nazi. While having personal preferences is certainly not bad - in fact any rescue professional/paraprofessional is entitled to (indeed, should!) have them - experience teaches that an ‘absolute’ approach to rigging and technical theory is something that softens over time.

    How open minded are you as a rescuer? Answer each of the following questions with a simple “yes/agree” or “no/disagree”:

    1. Rescue should only be done with a 12.5mm rope.
    2. Fire Departments have no business doing Technical Rescue.
    3. Mountain Rescuers have no clue what they are doing when it comes to Technical Rescue.
    4. Employers can’t effectively train and staff an in house Technical Rescue Team.
    5. Tandem Prusiks are the only reliable way to belay a load.
    6. Every rope rescue system must incorporate a belay.
    7. Anyone descending or lowering a rope should be required to use auto-locking braking devices (descenders)
    8. Never, ever, ever step on a life safety rope!
    9. Rope Rescue System Safety Factors should never dip below 10:1
    10. A dorsal attachment point is the best solution for fall arrest.
    11. Life safety / rescue equipment should be retired after 3 years use.
    12. A belay must pass the “whistle test” to be effective.
    Now, score one point for every question that you answered “yes” to. How many points did you score?

    (There's more at: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/resc...ui-mccurley?trk=hb_ntf_MEGAPHONE_ARTICLE_POST )
  2. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

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    2. As long as they have the proper training it doesn't matter who they are or where they come from
    3. See above
    8. Um I try to avoid it, but I step on my rap ropes in canyon from time to time, isn't that a life safety rope?

    I don't know enough about technical rescue to answer on any of the others.
  3. hobo_climber

    hobo_climber

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    zero. "IT DEPENDS"

    A rescuer or anyone involved in technical, rope, cave, canyon etc rescue should always keep an open mind, be flexible and never get caught "in the box"

    Every single rescue & exercise I have been involved with I have learnt something new that has challenged my thinking about everything else I do.

    We should be constantly learning & evolving techniques to suit the ever changing world we explore.
    Yellow Dart and Kuenn like this.
  4. Preston Gable

    Preston Gable

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    I get a Zero as well

    Rescue should only be done with a 12.5mm rope.
    It depends, the people doing the hauling need to understand what mechanical advantage they are using. 5 guys hauling on a 3:1 on a sharp edge will cut any rope. Or tear someone apart if they are stuck (we do confined space and bin rescue).

    Fire Departments have no business doing Technical Rescue.
    The volunteer department that I'm on does technical rescue, we also provide it as mutual aid for quite a few smaller departments

    Mountain Rescuers have no clue what they are doing when it comes to Technical Rescue.
    Quite possibly, but maybe they have had more training than they are given credit for

    Employers can’t effectively train and staff an in house Technical Rescue Team.
    Some can some can't. I'm a fan of bringing in a professional to at least provide initial training.

    Tandem Prusiks are the only reliable way to belay a load.
    Hell no, but thats how its usually done

    Every rope rescue system must incorporate a belay.
    Yes, whenever possible.

    Anyone descending or lowering a rope should be required to use auto-locking braking devices (descenders)
    Isn't that the point of a belay?

    Never, ever, ever step on a life safety rope!
    If it's so fragile that stepping on it could hurt it then you need a different rope. Avoid if possible but I hate when people get butt hurt over it.

    Rope Rescue System Safety Factors should never dip below 10:1
    Good luck with that in practice

    A dorsal attachment point is the best solution for fall arrest.
    It depends on the situation, most of the time yes, many times no

    Life safety / rescue equipment should be retired after 3 years use.
    Because steel carabiners have a shelf life... I can see some justification with rope and webbing, but our stuff is stored in a climate controlled environment seeing the light of day maybe 20 hours a year. Also show me someone that can afford to.

    A belay must pass the “whistle test” to be effective.
    Some sort of a verbal test yes, no matter the test it doesn't mean that they don't get distracted 30 seconds later
  5. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    The SAR world is moving towards double mainline vs main and belay. A lot have already switched over and there are a lot of advantages to a two main line system. Not sure if Tom counts two mains as a belay in his very vague statements.

    Everything else I put about the same
  6. Preston Gable

    Preston Gable

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    Interesting, I'm not at all familiar with using a double mainline system. I'm just a grunt doing what the instructors teach us but now you have me curious. My brief google search yielded nothing but the standard RPM and belay setup, have any good sources?

    EDIT
    More googling yielded this, very interesting next time we have a refresher I'll ambush the instructor.

    http://www.firerescuemagazine.com/a...r-0/two-tensioned-rope-systems-for-belay.html

    "in 10% of the tests, the belay system allowed a disturbing amount of travel"
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  7. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    We utilize theses:

    http://www.cmcrescue.com/equipment/mpd/

    Main con is cost to change over ($800 each and you need 2 min) You can use them to create a high line system as well. They become pulleys in a haul system similar to a rescue version of a grigri
  8. Preston Gable

    Preston Gable

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    Ah those are pretty neat, borderline idiot proof compared to the RPM. Reading about the double tensioned system makes a lot more sense. Gives you true redundancy and a lot more confidence with your belay system (he can't be sleeping). However I don't foresee us upgrading anytime soon, we've bought to many new toys lately and are saving our pennies.
  9. redneckdan

    redneckdan Barely Domesticated...

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    I'm not sure i would call an MPD idiot proof. I've seen some prety dumb stuff done with them. And it is possible to drop some one with them. They are a neat tool to have, they are more of a vehicle supportted team based rescue item.

    There is a continuum of applicable rescue skills and equipment. What is approriate for a highly trained moutnain rescue crew would be inapproriate for a minimally trained workplace rescue crew.

    1. Rescue should only be done with a 12.5mm rope. - Disagree. Some back country rescue groups are integrating 9mm super lines.
    2. Fire Departments have no business doing Technical Rescue.- Disagree
    3. Mountain Rescuers have no clue what they are doing when it comes to Technical Rescue.- Disagree
    4. Employers can’t effectively train and staff an in house Technical Rescue Team.- Disagree. I lead the group at my place of employment. we had to dial back what we do. We now have a 95% solution that is portable and easy to utilize.
    5. Tandem Prusiks are the only reliable way to belay a load. Disagree. I like the ASAP/L57 as well.
    6. Every rope rescue system must incorporate a belay. To a point. There needs to be some redundancy. TTRS is acceptable too.
    7. Anyone descending or lowering a rope should be required to use auto-locking braking devices (descenders) Depends on training level. I prefer a grigri or RIG for rescue or rope access work. I attended a training last year with some BORSTAR folks. They have ATC-Guides and 9.5mm canyon tech, seemed to do okay.
    8. Never, ever, ever step on a life safety rope! I think this has more to do with respect for life safety equipment.
    9. Rope Rescue System Safety Factors should never dip below 10:1 Depends on training. Are talking highly trained BORSTAR or the volly fire department for Westoutberumfuckistan Ohio...
    10. A dorsal attachment point is the best solution for fall arrest. Not really. Compresses the chest and can cause issues with breathing.
    11. Life safety / rescue equipment should be retired after 3 years use. Disagree.
    12. A belay must pass the “whistle test” to be effective. I tend to agree with this one. Especially if the primary does not auto lock.
  10. Andrew J Farrow

    Andrew J Farrow

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    hmm for a quiz that supposedly addresses " profesionsalism "

    question : 7 , 8 & 12 are in my OPINION very disengenuously worded

    my counter to q12 - jumping naked out of a 10th floor window is an effective way to reach the ground
  11. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I'm thinking some people might do well to re-read the original post more carefully. Some people seemed to have missed the point.

    T
  12. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    I think her points are ones we have tried to pattern and embrace in discussions on this forum....sometimes we stray a "furpiece" from the trail, though.

    Quotes worth requoting from the article:

    "Would you like a little CATMA to go with that DOGMA?"

    "As professionals in the field of rescue, it is my hope that we can discuss differences of opinion respectfully and with an eye toward receiving perspective rather than convincing others of our respective views."
    (Good advice regardless of the platform.)

    "Part of true expertise is experience, so go explore, try out, and test everything that you find here (or anywhere else!) to determine if/how it might apply to your environment or application. Truly there are usually several possible ‘right’ answers to any given rescue problem, and the ultimate goal is to be well-versed enough in critical analysis so that you might effectively evaluate the options at any given time."
    I have a healthy respect for rescue personnel, the majority of whom (that I know) are 100% volunteers. True, some have indulged a tad too much in the kool-aid, but to a person (that I've met) their heart is right. Hail to the Rescuer!
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    Tom Collins likes this.
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