Tech Tip: Answered The FiddleStick - an advanced anchor tool for canyoneering

Well..."it" happens, you know?

I can imagine, even if the pull cord was off to the side at the bottom, at that distance of a drop, it'd still be right there with the rappeller leaving the bird's nest. If its right there, then, I can imagine someone accidentally grabbing it, or, getting tangled in it. You pop down over the lip, and, the pull line gets hung up on your pack which is attached to the back of your harness... Or, someone slips and grabs for purchase with their guide hand...

Sometimes its dark. Sometimes folks are tired. You have a device which you pull on, and, when it releases, it dumps your whole set up right now. That just can't happen with a pull cord that's tied into the rappel line (and is usually two fairly stout canyon ropes tied together).

What if a partner forgets your fiddlesticking and decides to keep tension on the pull cord (to back up the block pulling through)?

Its such an unforgiving rope retrieval method. And, its use in this case comes at the very end of what is, for most folks, a long day or trip. Look how many accidents, epics and stuck ropes happen at the spot. Now add in a low margin release for the ropes. Yikes.

First rap in Englestead? Might be a good candidate. Folks are fresh. Nice big staging area.

Last rap, and, the longest by far, in Heaps. And, really, the reason for fiddling that drop? Just to save the effort of pulling the rap rope up and through the anchor? Not a good enough reason methinks. Not really a rope groove issue there.

Might be a bigger chance of sticking a rope or the pull cord too, in that crack below the launch point. Or, given the weight of the rap line and the speed at which it heads toward the anchor after the stick is yanked out. Is there a chance that the bundle of rope could get jammed in the rappel rings? Maybe. You wanna jug up to free that? Yikes. Leaving a time bomb for the next party?

I dunno. I've always though rope release items should be used sparingly and with extreme caution. And, there's a few fatalities out there from folks misusing rope release methods...experienced folks.

No real compelling reason to fiddle stick that drop. Other than, "because you can". Why add on risk especially at that location???

Mentally you have to accept the risk, use/safety of the gear, your personal skills, and experience. The fiddlestick is another tool with different risks, advantages, and use.

For some, like me, doing the Heaps sequence took a lot of mental. Others seem to take it with more in stride (or are also good at poker). Heaps seemed harder than Icebox, where you are against a wall most of the way down. After gaining some experience, it does get mentally easier.

Just never get complacent. Stay on your A game each time. Be careful. Be mindful.

Never thought of it that way. Noted. ")
Luke

If the rumor is true, someone recently had a pack haul-loop blowout on the final drop (pack was hanging)
sending the pack hurtling to the deck.
Imagine THAT catching your pull-cord on the way down.

Marlin-spiking does have its limitations...

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/black-cats-and-hanging-out-in-heaps.21318/

As the the one manning the rap station and being final rappeller in heaps, I send my pack down with the first guy who passes me. That way, I can man the station with more room, fewer distractions, and less risk when I'm the last one getting on rappel and the only one who needs to be at any greater degree of risk than anyone else in terms of the anchor on that last drop.

I've never done the final rap with my pack.

Thanks for all the thoughts Brian. I agree with you on this point - once on rope, and with everything rigged correctly - at that point a non-releasable setup has essentially zero chance of coming free, while a releasable is non-zero. I think we disagree on the odds, perhaps by a number of orders of magnitude. A weighted fiddlestick does not come out with a little tug or bump. In my test setup I freehang just above the ground, attached to a fiddled rap line, locked off. I cannot pull the stick out with both hands pulling on the dyneema cord. I have to tie in a carabiner and yard on that to get it out, but yes, it does come out.

In any case, my previous comments can be perceived as advocating using the technique at that drop. Apologies, I certainly don't want to do so - use a technique that you consider safe and are comfortable with. But if folks like Luke or Bootboy choose to fiddlestick it, taking the proper precautions, I'm not seeing an issue.

I am curious as to your comments on sticking equipment. I would think the chances (much) less so with fiddlestick, and would assume that is one of the two main reasons people like Luke and Bootboy have used a releasable rig there (along with efficiency). But having only seen pictures, just a guess on my part.

-john

Thanks to Brian for thoughtful look at fiddle-stick hazards.
As an advanced anchor tool that comes with a higher level of risk than other rigging methods it just seems prudent
for the manufacturers and purveyors of "sue- me - sticks" (and other retrievable anchor systems) that are posting here,
to take the most conservative approach when broadcasting the use of said anchors.

"sue - me - sticks" LOL!

Precisely why I have chosen to screen would-be buyers of both sand and water anchors that I make, and the same reason that the Waterpocket wont be turning up on the shelves of any retailers.

I have turned down several potential customers based on their "door approach" when inquiring after my wares. One such individual was the victim and subject of a SAR operation not but 2 days after I declined to sell him a sand anchor device.

Granted, I am not clairvoyant nor do possess perfect judgement, thats what my very wordy attorney-approved disclaimer is for.

And let me be clear, I do not advocate the use of any of these tools or devices beyond their utility as viable LNT methods, an ethic of which I am an outspoken proponent.

double post

Woe a second. The revival of this thread was prompted by my question about the longest rappel that these retrievable anchor devices had been used on. I asked for my personal knowledge (since I own one of them, but haven't yet used it), and I appreciate ALL reasonble, informative posts on this topic, both pro and con. I don't think we should hold any poster who discusses these devices guilty of anything. They were responding to my specific question, not haphazardly trying to promote sale and use of these devices to the rookie. After all, the originator of this thread -- a manufacturer and user -- labeled it "an ADVANCED anchor tool." (And the other manufacturer has extensive instructions (with pictures) on use of his.) So let the discussion generate light -- and a little less heat. There are some topics that just get flamed at on this forum, and I don't see that as productive or beneficial to anybody. It is more likely to stiffle free interchange of ideas, and because of info in this thread, I will be able to use the retrievable anchor in my possession more intelligently.

Also, anything can be misused. I mean anything. And we can always conjure up nightmare scenarios -- the what ifs. Now some of these scenarios are educational, but some are not so. We should be old enough to sort 'em out. Caveat emptor. Carry on.

X2 on the labels, disclaimers, and info-cussion... goood stuff!

I experienced the FiddleStick (not to be confused with Fiddle-Shtick) last year for the first-time, with Blake/Mountaineer and company. In the hands of the skilled practitioner, it is a slick-solution. In the hands of the unlearned wannabe, it's a saturday-night-special. As others have well documented, it has risk (don't they all), value and purpose - great tool when used judiciously.

Would anyone justify the final Heaps drop as a "conservative" or "reasonable" use for a fiddle-stick?
I believe that many of the hazards associated with fiddle-sticking (see Brian's post) INCREASE with the length of the drop.

Changing the Waterpocket to the "Sumi Sac" (sue-me-sack) haha! jk


But anyway, Thank you townsend for adding in a little perspective.

Life, and in the present context, recreation, is all about establishing your own personal level of acceptable risk. Id like to think that we canyoneers are mostly responsible individuals and that we can make these judgments about our own acceptable risks responsibly.

I'll take that on by first saying that I make no specific endorsement.

Conservative? No. Based on the fact that slightly less fail prone options are easily executed in the same place.

Reasonable? I personally lean to yes, but it's just that, personal. See my above Post

FWIW For me, I would estimate about 130 feet, give or take...

For me, At least a half dozen in the the '270-330' range

you win..

The fiddlestick, another technique. One that you need to personally evaluate and practice on like everything else. Is it something you are comfortable with? What is the value vs. the risks? It certainly is not intended for everyone, nor intended in every situation.

Before I could use it, I had to practice A LOT in my garage. I set up a safe environment, crash pad, hung a foot off the deck; and

a) tried "smooth operator/stick" using various knots, various placement settings
b) I ascended, descended several times

I then put another victim, I mean...volunteer on the rope and tested the pull strength needed for each of the knots. When weighted, some knots proved to be very resilient to a pull. For me, I gained comfort on the safety. I also learned, by experience, things I didn't wanted to do or needed to watch out for in the field. Don't use it until you have tested and are comfortable with it.

Note, there are many points you need to be mindful of (how it is placed against a rock, etc). All of which have been noted here or on other threads.

Sigh.....
Apologies for seeming harsh....but....
I have been involved professionally in the design, manufacture, and sales of "quick -release"/ remote release systems for rigging, stunts, and theater for over twenty years.
The stuff is dangerous!
In systems that carry a high level of risk (say a million to one), in a show that repeats the same action(s) 100 times a show, four times a day, and runs for ten years....you eventually get to failure.
In the stunt world quick release systems operated by professionals have killed several, injured many, and have prompted several law suits (never with us!).
When first taking an interest in canyoneering, I messed around with fiddlesticks, etc. and developed and tested a couple of new versions of these and also the "slick" (which is based on a classic parachute 3-ring release).
It is VERY hard to create a 'fail-safe' system (one that would be impossible to release under body weight) so I moved on to other toys.
The fiddle-stick and smooth operator 'work' but the proper use requires a level of commitment that Mountaineer demonstrates so well in his post.
For the average Joe or Jane, for trade routes in Zion, on long drops?
Long term, the odds may not favor this.