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News Technical Term: LAPAR / LAMAR

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by ratagonia, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    LAPAR -

    I would like to enroll you in my project to return the term Last Person at RISK to its original meaning.

    It does not mean the last person to rappel.

    It means the last person to rappel when there is a greater than usual risk for that last person. For instance, using a SandTrap, a FiddleStick, or a dicey deadman. Sometimes a pack drag. Or a downclimb into a catch or aggressive spot. In many of these cases, the anchor is backed up by the Last Person for everyone BUT the Last Person.

    It is true that the last person to rappel has some duties that require a greater degree of competence than the average visitor to a National Park has. But this does not constitute an "unusual risk".

    Essentially, using LAPAR or LAMAR for the last person in general, removes all the useful meaning from the term. The Last Person rappelling is just the Last Person. If you want to Kelseyize it, that is the "LP". Although, he would probably go with the LM/W.

    Thanks.

    Tom
  2. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    Seems like a canyoneering glossary might be a good idea to be posted on a website somewhere. Could be a good reference for people.
    Rapterman likes this.
  3. Ultra Static

    Ultra Static

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    Consider me enrolled. I also love the idea of a glossary, but what would really be incredible is a wiki for this community. Dye Clan and Rope Wiki are great, but they don't seem to have the constant input, veteran oversight, and depth of discussion that would be really helpful to everyone from complete greenhorns to veterans looking to hone their techniques.

    As a relative newcomer to this hobby, the lack of centralized consensus information is... daunting. Pair that with the massive amount of misinformation present in random forum threads (which is often the only place to find answers) and you inevitably end up with some confusion and bad practices.

    As a newbie, I'm exceedingly greatful to the dedicated posters in this forum that are willing to offer their wisdom time and again to people like me.

    Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk
    Rapterman likes this.
  4. Benjamin Pelletier

    Benjamin Pelletier

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    I'd be interested to see evidence that this is actually the most common usage. I've yet to find any examples online, apart from Tom, that limit usage of LAPAR to scenarios in which there is some "unusual" risk (as if there is some standard amount of risk that applies across all canyons any way). On the other hand, I've put 10 counterexamples where I think people have used the term to refer to situations with normal canyon risk in the "Usage examples" section here:

    http://ropewiki.com/Talk:Last_person_at_risk

    Tom, do you think the term applies only in the case of marginal anchors, or do you think it also applies when other types of unique risks are present for the last person (such as water hazards)?

    Also, Ultra Static, perhaps this is the wiki you were looking for? Unfortunately, I think you'll find less consensus that you may hope for unless you just pick a single canyoneering community and stay within it.
  5. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    The meta conversation first...

    A wiki requires a certain number of active contributors to gel and become self-sustaining. Ropewiki has started to move in that direction, although the loss of Luca is a great loss, both personally and to the wiki. One of the things that makes the wiki undesirable is if it operates as a KINGDOM of an individual, or if it narrows into a regional or clique instrument, rather than an instrument played by a wide variety of people. Those people will often disagree, and one thing a wiki requires (at some point) is a conflict resolution process - a Leviathan, if you are familiar with the Hobbsian version of that term.

    If you, personally, insist on being the KING, then a lot of people, including me, will not be interested in participating. You would do better to allow things that you disagree with to appear on the Wiki, and run the conflict resolution process without making yourself MORE EQUAL. I have come up against this before on the wiki, which is one reason I rarely contribute to it, even though I have a strong history of supporting community projects.

    Tom
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  6. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I think you are looking in the wrong place.

    The term was brought to the SoCal region by Klaus (and perhaps others), re-defined and spread. So, you have run a google search and found something that agrees with your prejudice. Sounds like modern politics to ME!

    But that is a lousy place to look. Here are two OTHER places to look:

    HISTORY: Dictionaries often look for the earliest use of a term. Google tends to be about the current use of the term, very much skewed to usage since the Interwebs became the main communication device. The term was invented by Steve Allen to mean as I define it above. I took a quick glance through Canyoneering2, and did not find a reference to it. It may ONLY have been passed by word of mouth - SA is not really a modern internet persona. But among us Utah Steve Allen Fans, it has been in common use for at least 15 years. Not sure I can prove that, but a thorough search of the Yahoo Canyons archive (very awkward on this site) would perhaps reveal evidence.

    MEANING: As I have stated several times, the term as YOU suggest using it is devoid of significant meaning. I am "at risk" right now - I am sitting in my office with a view of the highway. I have an extended history of pissing people off, and my location is well known. Many of those pissed off people are gun owners with some degree of anger management issues. I am an easy target. There are also large trees in my front yard, and the usual amount of exposure to meteorites and lightening strikes. The last person to rappel is always at somewhat larger risk than the people who went before. One moment of passage for beginners becoming intermediates is the first time they are the last to rappel. There is no reason to recognize this with a special term.

    Steve Allen, and us, used to use significantly more-dubious anchors than most of the ones we get now. FiddleStick, SandTrap and WaterPocket have improved our safety significantly. But there are certainly times when the Last Person has significantly more RISK, and this is what the term is for.

    (SNARK)Perhaps peeps in SoCal are so poorly trained that the last person at each rappel has significantly more risk than the other rappellers. The solution to this is not to steal a term, but to get your act together.(/SNARK)

    =====

    If you would like me to participate in the Ropewiki, as difficult a character as I am, the ball is in your court. You need to apologize for your heavy-handed style publicly and privately, develop a Leviathanish attitude, reverse your edit of my post, and recruit people outside of your clique to contribute to the Ropewiki.

    Tom
  7. Benjamin Pelletier

    Benjamin Pelletier

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    I completely agree that wikis only work as long as there isn't a king. I don't think I have done anything king-like in this case, but I'm definitely open to feedback on what I may have done wrong or how I can improve. Specifically, I didn't wholesale-revert any edits -- that was you. I did make some edits that left nearly all your content intact and merely served to inform readers of the ongoing disagreement. Meanwhile, I detailed my point of view in the Talk page to which your response, in it's entirety, was "Ridiculous." What do you recommend I should have done differently?
  8. Benjamin Pelletier

    Benjamin Pelletier

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    One of my examples is from the Yahoo archives from 2001. Many (most?) of my examples are from Utah canyoneers. One example is from a book. Can you provide one documented example confirming your interpretation?

    Please provide the link to the diff where you think I was heavy-handed. The most major change I made was to undo your wholesale deletion of my contribution which only minimally modified your contribution.
  9. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    My apologies, my liege, for disagreeing with you. If you look at the quote from Dave Black's book, you will see that it supports my position. Dave Black is a friend of Steve Allen.

    Your Obedient Servant...

    Thomas of Carmel
  10. Benjamin Pelletier

    Benjamin Pelletier

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    You've yet to provide one example of me behaving in a king-like manner. I slightly edited your contribution to include information I thought it left out, but left it mostly intact. You simply deleted that entire edit to silence the perspective I added. Who is the king again?

    Here's the quote from the book and the comment I made:

    "LMR and BMR are often used in sequencing, rope-setting, and the use of marginal anchors." (includes sequencing, and that doesn't seem "unusual")

    So you consider sequencing and rope-setting to be "unusual" risks?
  11. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Great. You have a long list of obscure references, many of which are made by beginners, and even more of which you mis-interpret to support your point of view. Perhaps you should take a gander at the Wikipedia article on Reliable Sources.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources

    I am not suggesting that you adopt this level of rigor for YOUR wiki, my liege, but I do suggest you be informed by it. A comment made by a beginner picked up from a guide on the Tetons, cited twice, is not a Reliable Source, even in a casual environment.

    Y.O.S.

    Tom
  12. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Do you know what Sequencing is?

    Tom
  13. Benjamin Pelletier

    Benjamin Pelletier

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  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    These terms were developed to describe actions in a type of canyon that you are not a regular participant in. You CAN adapt them to other conditions, but you should understand them where they actually have meaning FIRST.

    Yes, it would apply to Class C canyon situations, where the last person has an unusual risk even for Class C. Going without a contingency anchor as the last person is a usual risk of Class C, and contingency CAN be provided when appropriate, therefore, just lack of a contingency is not sufficient to use the term LAPAR.

    I see no reason to, once again, butt heads with you Benjamin. You seem remarkably resistant to changing your mind. All it does is waste my time and piss me off. So, I have laid out my requirements for further participation on my part on the Ropewiki. Not really negotiable.

    Tom
  15. Benjamin Pelletier

    Benjamin Pelletier

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    Yes, my king, I bow to your divine knowledge of the only possible use of words related to canyoneering.

    Unfortunately I will not be undoing or apologizing for preventing you from silencing opinions you disagree with without a discussion, and you are of course free to contribute or not as you see fit.
  16. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    I don't believe that it's intentional misinformation. There are just differing ideas on what is considered best practice, best strategy, best whatever. Sometimes there are egos involved, but many times it's just differing opinions.

    Best thing I ever did was just get out and go with more experienced people and try to absorb any knowledge that could be found

    And canyons change a lot. 2 years ago, if anyone asked me about Echo Canyon, I would have told you it's a kiddie canyon and anyone can do it. This year, completely different. It has a legitimate keeper pothole and last weekend when we where there it was the least optimal condition. Water just deep enough you couldn't touch but the lip high enough that you could no way reach.

    Luckily we were there as a group of 2 not involved in our party were not prepared and could not get out of the keeper and also could not go back up the canyon. It could have ended badly for them.
    Rapterman and hank moon like this.
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