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TECH~ Valdotain?

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Stevee B, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. Stevee B

    Stevee B Guest

    What is the best method to use to descend a taut rappel line if that is the only line you have and the rappeller is in need of rescue? It is a Valdotain, no? I'm trying to read this freakin French canyoneering manual and it's got too much French in it....

    Are there any other methods commonly used for descending a weighted line?

    S
  2. Rich Carlson

    Rich Carlson Guest

    Several ways to do it. Valdotain works well, but is intended for wet canyons. Dry valdy on dry rope creates too much heat. The valdy will melt.

    Another system uses a cord and a couple carabiners, but I won't try to desribe it. I'll show you when I get out there this summer.

    Which edition of the EFC manual do you have? White cover? Dark?


    What is the best method to use to descend a taut rappel line if that is the only line you > have and the rappeller is in need of rescue? It is a Valdotain, no? I'm trying to read this > freakin French canyoneering manual and it's got too much French in it....
    Are there any other methods commonly used for descending a weighted line?
    S
  3. Probably the safest method of descending a taut rope would be to downclimb the rope using either mechanical ascenders or knots. There are a couple of methods for actually rappelling on a taut line, all of which are SCAREY!

    Steven Kesler

    Stevee B wrote:
    What is the best method to use to descend a taut rappel line if that is > the only line you > have and the rappeller is in need of rescue? It is a Valdotain, no? > I'm trying to read this > freakin French canyoneering manual and it's got too much French in it....
    Are there any other methods commonly used for descending a weighted line?
    S



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading > and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS > = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; > SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so > we know you are coding for us, such as:
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  4. Another method of descending a taut line which just came to mind is to use what is called a french braid knot, a hitch which can be released under load.

    Steven Kesler

    Stevee B wrote:
    What is the best method to use to descend a taut rappel line if that is > the only line you > have and the rappeller is in need of rescue? It is a Valdotain, no? > I'm trying to read this > freakin French canyoneering manual and it's got too much French in it....
    Are there any other methods commonly used for descending a weighted line?
    S



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading > and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS > = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; > SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so > we know you are coding for us, such as:
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?
    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks > should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
    > To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press > &amp;amp;quot;Save > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.

    ------ > * Groups Links*
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    -- ************************************** skesler@verizon.net ************************************** ** Subduction may lead to orogeny ** **************************************
  5. Valdotain, is a take on the french braid. I'm not 100% sure what the difference is but I understand they work in the same fashion. We will be making Valdotains at this months Mojave Chapter meeting on Wed. night if you want to stop by. :)

    Neil

    STEVEN M KESLER skesler@verizon.net> wrote: Another method of descending a taut line which just came to mind is to use what is called a french braid knot, a hitch which can be released under load.

    Steven Kesler

    Stevee B wrote:
    What is the best method to use to descend a taut rappel line if that is > the only line you > have and the rappeller is in need of rescue? It is a Valdotain, no? > I'm trying to read this > freakin French canyoneering manual and it's got too much French in it....
    Are there any other methods commonly used for descending a weighted line?
    S



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading > and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS > = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; > SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so > we know you are coding for us, such as:
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?
    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks > should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
    > To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press > &amp;amp;quot;Save > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.

    ------ > * Groups Links*
    * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
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    > * Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


    -- ************************************** skesler@verizon.net ************************************** ** Subduction may lead to orogeny ** **************************************



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

    This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save Changes&amp;amp;quot;.



    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages.



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  6. Rich Carlson

    Rich Carlson Guest

    Hey Steve,

    How are you? Is Sonny on this list, too? The valdotain that Steve B. is asking about is a variation of a French braid.

    > Another method of descending a taut line which just came to mind is to > use what is called a french braid knot, a hitch which can be released > under load.
    Steven Kesler
  7. Hi Rich, I am well. Sonny is floating around on the list also. I am eagerly awaiting my next canyoneering adventure.

    Steven Kesler

    Rich Carlson wrote:
    Hey Steve,
    How are you? Is Sonny on this list, too? > The valdotain that Steve B. is asking about is a variation of a French > braid.
    > > Another method of descending a taut line which just came to mind is to > > use what is called a french braid knot, a hitch which can be released > > under load. >
    > Steven Kesler


    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading > and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS > = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; > SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so > we know you are coding for us, such as:
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?
    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks > should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
    > To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press > &amp;amp;quot;Save > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.

    ------ > * Groups Links*
    * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > canyons-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comcanyons-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a>?subject=Unsubscribe
    > * Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


    -- ************************************** skesler@verizon.net ************************************** ** Subduction may lead to orogeny ** **************************************
  8. Rich Carlson

    Rich Carlson Guest

    French Braid is made by criss-crossing the cord over the rope. Valdotain starts with 3 spiral wraps, then criss-crosses. The variation allows a valdotain to slide more easily than a French Braid.

    So you need any illustrations for your training?

    > Valdotain, is a take on the french braid. I'm not 100% sure what the difference is but I understand they work in the same fashion. We will be making Valdotains at this months Mojave Chapter meeting on Wed. night if you want to stop by. :)
    Neil
  9. If you have any illustrations available, I would be interested. You have peaked my curiosity.

    Steven

    Rich Carlson wrote:
    French Braid is made by criss-crossing the cord over the rope. Valdotain > starts with 3 > spiral wraps, then criss-crosses. The variation allows a valdotain to > slide more easily > than a French Braid.
    So you need any illustrations for your training?
    > > Valdotain, is a take on the french braid. I'm not 100% sure what the > difference is > but I understand they work in the same fashion. We will be making > Valdotains at this > months Mojave Chapter meeting on Wed. night if you want to stop by. :) >
    > Neil


    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading > and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS > = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; > SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so > we know you are coding for us, such as:
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?
    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks > should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
    > To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press > &amp;amp;quot;Save > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.

    ------ > * Groups Links*
    * To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > canyons-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comcanyons-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a>?subject=Unsubscribe
    > * Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.


    -- ************************************** skesler@verizon.net ************************************** ** Subduction may lead to orogeny ** **************************************
  10. Stevee B

    Stevee B Guest


    Which edition of the EFC manual do you have? White cover? Dark?

    Dark. Manuel Technique De Descente De Canyon perhaps 1998?
  11. Rich Carlson

    Rich Carlson Guest

    Good. You have the newer of the two.




    Which edition of the EFC manual do you have? White cover? Dark?
    Dark. Manuel Technique De Descente De Canyon > perhaps 1998?
  12. Stevee B

    Stevee B Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, STEVEN M KESLER <skesler@v...> wrote: > Probably the safest method of descending a taut rope would be to > downclimb the rope using either mechanical ascenders or knots. There > are a couple of methods for actually rappelling on a taut line, all of > which are SCAREY!

    Just curious, are any of these methods for actually rappelling on a taut line considered "safe" or in any way standard procedure? Even if not, you've definitely got me curious. Explain! Wish I had the EFC manual in front of me. When Evan helps me translate some of it, I'll see if I can post some diagrams/descriptions of some of the more intriguing shots.

    Steve

    >
  13. Koen

    Koen Guest


    Just curious, are any of these methods for actually rappelling on a taut line considered > "safe" or in any way standard procedure? Even if not, you've definitely got me curious. > Explain! > Wish I had the EFC manual in front of me. When Evan helps me translate some of it, I'll see > if I can post some diagrams/descriptions of some of the more intriguing shots. >

    Rappelling over a taut line is never standard procedure but something to "have in your toolkit" in case of emergency (like not having a backup rope on top and needing to go help somebody stuck on rope - in a hurry). It is reasonably safe on wet ropes with a valdotain you have tested personally in controlled circumstances. Getting one "just right" takes time and a lot of swearing :).

    Cowtails: a few important things to keep in mind when making them. - make two of different lengths, one a really short one, the other so long that you can still reach the top of a valdotain when hanging on it (depends on your length and your belt, a rule of thumb is that a rope clamp like a jumar should be at eyes height when holding it up standing, not hanging on it !). This is important: I've seen a lot of people dangling helplessly from their too long a cowstail :). - think: shock absorption ! A short length of rope is really bad to fall on, so some like to use "8" knots on all 3 points: at each end and on the belt. When arresting a fall these hand-tightened knots work as a primitive shock absorber. Drawbacks: bulky and you have to regularly check that they don't become undone. Don't use duct tape or heat-crimp tubing to"secure" them, use something non chemical like strong rubber bands or electrians straps to fix loose ends and/or carabiners.

    If you use half a "double fisherman" on the ends which hold the carabiners you don't need to "fix" them, the knot holds them in place.

    Koen
  14. Yep, I'm here. I was "out to lunch" for a while.

    The French Braid has tremendous holding power. Kesler and I observed two pieces of 8mm french braid on 11 mm rope from Ken Laidlaw in a cave rescue course. He had pulled on the braid until the system broke. The braid did not fail, the mainline broke. The braid was fused into the mainline. So this would be very strong, say when building highlines.

    It is great for descending vertical ropes under tension or on a looped rope wherein a person would first descend at an angle and then ascend.

    It is so simple and useful that I carry 6 feet of cord in canyons.

    Sonny

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Rich Carlson" <rcwildone@y...> wrote:
    Hey Steve,
    How are you? Is Sonny on this list, too? > The valdotain that Steve B. is asking about is a variation of a French braid.

    Another method of descending a taut line which just came to mind is to
    use what is called a french braid knot, a hitch which can be released
    under load.

    Steven Kesler
  15. evanojenkins

    evanojenkins Guest

    If I remember correctly, the technique shown in the EFC book for descending a taut wet rope is a slight modification of the basic valdotain which uses a couple of carabiners to attach the rescuer via the taut rope below the valdotain.

    The idea is that the carabiners take most of the friction from the lower, easing the stain on the valdotain. I think Stefan told me it was invented by a French guide who spent ages optimizing it, and is named after the town he lives in. (Theol...(something French!!))

    The disadvantage is that the rope must remain taut, so it's not great in situations where if the victim is likely to free themselves, and it must always be backed up with a cowstail clipped directly to the valdotain.

    I haven't tried this modification to the basic Valdotain yet, but keep meaning to give it a go. Has anyone else tried this? How much smoother is it than the valdotain alone? (And what's the proper spelling?!)

    (Stevee if you are posting diagrams perhaps you could include that one?)

    Evan

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Stevee B" <SteveBrezovec@h...> wrote:
    > Just curious, are any of these methods for actually rappelling on a taut line considered > "safe" or in any way standard procedure? Even if not, you've definitely got me curious. > Explain! > Wish I had the EFC manual in front of me. When Evan helps me translate some of it, I'll see > if I can post some diagrams/descriptions of some of the more intriguing shots.
    Steve
    >
  16. Koen

    Koen Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "evanojenkins" <evanojenkins@h...> wrote:
    If I remember correctly, the technique shown in the EFC book for > descending a taut wet rope is a slight modification of the basic > valdotain which uses a couple of carabiners to attach the rescuer via > the taut rope below the valdotain.
    The idea is that the carabiners take most of the friction from the > lower, easing the stain on the valdotain. I think Stefan told me it > was invented by a French guide who spent ages optimizing it, and is > named after the town he lives in. (Theol...(something French!!))
    The disadvantage is that the rope must remain taut, so it's not great > in situations where if the victim is likely to free themselves, and > it must always be backed up with a cowstail clipped directly to the > valdotain.
    I haven't tried this modification to the basic Valdotain yet, but > keep meaning to give it a go. Has anyone else tried this? How much > smoother is it than the valdotain alone? (And what's the proper > spelling?!) >

    "Théoulienne" it is, no idea where the word comes from.

    The idea is to take the brunt of the friction/heath on the carabiners. It works OK, it makes the fine-tuning of your valdotain less critical, the valdotain is less likely to jam under weight.

    Practise above deep water :).

    Koen
  17. evanojenkins

    evanojenkins Guest

    That's right, thanks Koen!

    Method Théoulienne - It was invented in Théoule (West of Cannes)

    Evan

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Koen" <pocoloco@s...> wrote:

    "Théoulienne" it is, no idea where the word comes from.
    The idea is to take the brunt of the friction/heath on the > carabiners. It works OK, it makes the fine-tuning of your valdotain > less critical, the valdotain is less likely to jam under weight.
    Practise above deep water :).
    Koen
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