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TECH~ Stein/stone knot

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Stevee B, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. Stevee B

    Stevee B Guest

    Isolating single strands when rope is rigged for double strand rappel. Advantages: Requires only one carabiner Easy to untie Can be tied nearly anywhere on rope (i.e. doesn't need to be fixed to the anchor itself, if it's desirous to use it at an intermediate station). Disadvanages: A bit confusing to learn/tie Non-releasable No contingency

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "tnunemac" <nunemach@m...> wrote:
    Maybe I missed this somewhere, but, er... what's it used fer? >
  2. Rich Carlson

    Rich Carlson Guest

    Yes, the stein (aka stone) knot is in Stephan's book.

    The isolation of the two strands can really help your group move more efficiently. One rappeller rigs and rappels. While the first person is rappelling, a second rappeller rigs. As soon as rappeller #1 hits the ground, rappeller #2 can go. Etc. Etc.

    Last person removes the carabiner and raps on two strands.
  3. tnunemac

    tnunemac Guest

    Clever. We do single rope raps, sometimes with contingencies, but we haven't tried a rapid-fire alternating strand dealie. Good idea, thanks.

    -Tyson

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Rich Carlson" <rcwild@w...> wrote:
    Yes, the stein (aka stone) knot is in Stephan's book.
    The isolation of the two strands can really help your group move more efficiently. One > rappeller rigs and rappels. While the first person is rappelling, a second rappeller rigs. As soon > as rappeller #1 hits the ground, rappeller #2 can go. Etc. Etc.
    Last person removes the carabiner and raps on two strands.
  4. Rich Carlson

    Rich Carlson Guest

    One more tool in the toolbox. I tend to only use it on shorter rappels. Blocks or contingency anchors on longer rappels.

    Rich Carlson, Instructor American Canyoneering Association http://www.canyoneering.net


    Clever. We do single rope raps, sometimes with contingencies, but we > haven't tried a rapid-fire alternating strand dealie. Good idea, thanks.
    -Tyson
  5. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    If the rappels are LONG, you can also rig two strands, and have two people rappel side-by-side. (Of course, make sure the anchor is plenty strong).

    Maybe it is stating the obvious, but having two people rappelling, not side-by-side, is almost always a bad idea. The upper person tends to knock rocks on the lower person. And there are other bad things that can happen too.

    Can also set up two single strands with contingency anchors, but this gets pretty complex.

    YMMV. It Depends! Etc.

    Tom



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "tnunemac" <nunemach@m...> wrote:
    Clever. We do single rope raps, sometimes with contingencies, but we > haven't tried a rapid-fire alternating strand dealie. Good idea, thanks.
    -Tyson
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Rich Carlson" <rcwild@w...> wrote:

    Yes, the stein (aka stone) knot is in Stephan's book.

    The isolation of the two strands can really help your group move > more efficiently. One
    rappeller rigs and rappels. While the first person is rappelling, a > second rappeller rigs. As soon
    as rappeller #1 hits the ground, rappeller #2 can go. Etc. Etc.

    Last person removes the carabiner and raps on two strands.
  6. Toms point of view is right with not going down side-by-side BUT as with almost all technics you have to check many things around you first. Personaly I never had problems with this technic when clients didn't rappel side-by-side but I used it only under safe conditions (short rappels, no loose rocks etc.).

    There are mainly two possibilities to tie that knot. The original one who comes from alpinism is the one where the knot is tied "downwards". The modified version (invented by my book) where the knot is tied "upwards". The problem with the first version was that the knot was many times too low what made handling more difficult. With the modified version the knot is much closer to the anchor point (so mostly higher ;-). Second advantage was that the load was taken by the turns of the knot. In the original version the biggest part of the load was on the biner.

    Today there is a "third version" which replaces the Steinknoten AND it is a contingency system for both strands. A bit more material necessary but much safer. So you have the advantages of the Steinknoten with a big plus ! We call it "releasable double figure eight". Sounds already quite cool, isn't it ?

    Another possibility is the new rope separation system developed by me and a guy of the canyon rescue team of the fire department. No problem to use two strands on contingency anchors and easy uninstall. Will be available this year. First presented in the new German version of my technical manual coming out in May 2005 and in the English and French version coming out in automn/winter 2005.

    Stefan senior instructor CEC



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagoni@x> wrote:
    If the rappels are LONG, you can also rig two strands, and have two > people rappel side-by-side. (Of course, make sure the anchor is > plenty strong).
    Maybe it is stating the obvious, but having two people rappelling, not > side-by-side, is almost always a bad idea. The upper person tends to > knock rocks on the lower person. And there are other bad things that > can happen too.
    Can also set up two single strands with contingency anchors, but this > gets pretty complex.
    YMMV. It Depends! Etc.
    Tom
  7. evanojenkins

    evanojenkins Guest

    Stefan,

    Thanks for explaining the difference between tying the stein knot "upwards" and "downwards". Have you noticed any difference in how easy it is to untie? I wonder if the carabiner taking some of the load when it is tied "downwards" may stop the knot getting too tight?

    As you say, if you are close to the anchor it is better to make a double contingency system at the anchor. How does the "releasable double figure of eight" compare with the single eight system that Steve posted in the folder http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/files/Technical20Info/Knots/Figu re%20Eight%20Uses/ (Large hole of the eight clipped into anchor and both ropes passed through and over the end). I guess the "double figure of eight" may be more reliable at releasing because there is no possibility of one strand getting caught under the other, but at the expense of requiring the second figure of eight? Is that the advantage?

    It will be a big step to get some of my American friends to carry 2 figure of eights, they hate even carrying one! :))

    Evan

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Stefan Hofmann" <s.hofmann@t...> wrote:

    > There are mainly two possibilities to tie that knot. The original one > who comes from alpinism is the one where the knot is tied "downwards". > The modified version (invented by my book) where the knot is tied > "upwards". > The problem with the first version was that the knot was many times > too low what made handling more difficult. > With the modified version the knot is much closer to the anchor point > (so mostly higher ;-). Second advantage was that the load was taken by > the turns of the knot. In the original version the biggest part of the > load was on the biner.
    Today there is a "third version" which replaces the Steinknoten AND it > is a contingency system for both strands. A bit more material > necessary but much safer. So you have the advantages of the > Steinknoten with a big plus ! We call it "releasable double figure > eight". Sounds already quite cool, isn't it ?
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