Posted in another thread..... After having done the subway many times I have never done it with any flow. Based on discussion above and most recent report from rangers our group was prepared to go look and hike out. Got a permit to do subway with my boys and some friends Saturday. Recent snow from Thursday and Friday blanketed the wildcat canyon trailhead. The turnoff towards the subway had some pools and a running creek. I was not optimistic about how much flow I saw. As we descended the snow mostly disappeared but we crossed lots of little streams. Really beautiful. Not too far before the hike up over the slick rock saddle leading down to the big down climb into the subway we crossed a full fledged creek. I would guess at least 3 cfs or more. Hmmmm. This is only one part of the flow that ultimately ends up in the creek. We finally arrived at the alcove and sure enough it was flowing. I would guess 3-5 cfs. As we moved down the creek there was also some flow coming from das boot - thought to waste deep going back in. The hiking in the creek however wasn't as much as I would have thought. It was in some spots ankle to shin height but certainly not flooded. The flow through the boulders wasn't too forceful so it seemed quite doable for our group. Water was quite cold but manageable in 4/3s up 7 in neoprene depending on person. No more photos since I put the phone away at boulders but was a terrific day. No direct correlation but I think worth paying attention to is flow in virgin was 248 cfs that morning. As stated above can't really make a final decision till you make the big hike down to look. This may be another thread, but it was not easy to get the permit even at his time of year. Everyone else with a permit this day seemed to be bottom up hikers. Would be nice if they had a separate permit for top down and bottom up. Color code the permits differently for tracking. Depends on time of year but seems like a bunch of top Downers are limited by a higher volume of bottom uppers. I'm sure the park wants to limit total number each day but would be nice to bifurcate the demand. I'm sure I haven't thought through all the issues yet but it seems many days the top down capacity is being underutilized by what I would guess the larger population who put in for the nontechnical bottom hikers.