stirring the pot...

Nothing like a little shoot the messenger. Interesting perspectives, perhaps even more interesting the pass that MK gets. Because he's "world traveled"? Because he saw religious monuments in afganistan before they were destroyed by the Taliban?? Looks to me like grasping at imagined exculpating straws, while ignoring the original letter statement. BC, I usually enjoy your incisiveness and common sense but you're way over the top on this one. "Shamefully immoral" for calling a spade a spade? Yet you have no problem with the statement that the president elect has made the "biggest mistake of his presidency", by chosing Emanuel as chief of staff- a man whose main disqualifying trait is then listed as being that he is Jewish? And then this is all topped off with the statement that "America's support of Israel has been our biggest mistake"? But you have no problem with this? I see this as being closer to Ahmadinejad than being benign. Maybe I can get some of those rose colored glasses for Christmas.

rick

A careful parsing of Mr. K's letter makes it clear that he is anti- Zionist (aka anti-Isreal), rather than explicitly anti-semitic. Many will read anti-semitism into his position, as well, but I read it more as a grasping conspiracy-theorist gobbledygook. Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.

Yes, yes, perhaps the careful wielding of the scalpel misses the obvious. So be it. I consider the anti-Zionist and Conspiracy- theorist statements to be damning enough, without also finding true anti-semitism within his statements. I do not look to Mr. K for wisdom in the areas of politics and foreign policy.

Parse it as you will.

Tom

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rick thompson" <gone2moab@...> wrote:
Nothing like a little shoot the messenger. Interesting perspectives, > perhaps even more interesting the pass that MK gets. Because > he's "world traveled"? Because he saw religious monuments in > afganistan before they were destroyed by the Taliban?? Looks to me > like grasping at imagined exculpating straws, while ignoring the > original letter statement. BC, I usually enjoy your incisiveness and > common sense but you're way over the top on this one. "Shamefully > immoral" for calling a spade a spade? Yet you have no problem with > the statement that the president elect has made the "biggest mistake > of his presidency", by chosing Emanuel as chief of staff- a man whose > main disqualifying trait is then listed as being that he is Jewish? > And then this is all topped off with the statement that "America's > support of Israel has been our biggest mistake"? But you have no > problem with this? I see this as being closer to Ahmadinejad than > being benign. Maybe I can get some of those rose colored glasses for > Christmas.
rick >

This seems like a good excuse to revive the periodic good books thread. If you want an excellent, exhaustive account of the history of the STATE of Israel (not Jews or Judaism)--from the Israeli perspective--I found "A History of Israel from the Rise of Zionism to Our Time" by Howard Sachar to be very, very informative. I read the newspapers, but was amazed at how little I knew about this nation.

Jeff



________________________________ From: Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:09:50 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: stirring the pot...

A careful parsing of Mr. K's letter makes it clear that he is anti- Zionist (aka anti-Isreal), rather than explicitly anti-semitic. Many will read anti-semitism into his position, as well, but I read it more as a grasping conspiracy-theorist gobbledygook. Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.

Yes, yes, perhaps the careful wielding of the scalpel misses the obvious. So be it. I consider the anti-Zionist and Conspiracy- theorist statements to be damning enough, without also finding true anti-semitism within his statements. I do not look to Mr. K for wisdom in the areas of politics and foreign policy.

Parse it as you will.

Tom

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote: > A careful parsing of Mr. K's letter makes it clear that he is anti- > Zionist (aka anti-Isreal), rather than explicitly anti-semitic.

I don't think you can say one leads to another. And to even imply that someone is anti-semitic because they make a statement about the US support of Israel is a very unfair stretch. As Midnight Oil's lyrics suggust, "Still it aches like tetanus, it reeks of politics."

> Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.

Based on what?

> --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rick thompson" <gone2moab@
wrote:

> "Shamefully immoral" for calling a spade a spade?

So, you're calling MK anti-semetic? Based on his disagreement with a political appointment and the US policy with regard to Israel?

That's like saying Jimmy Carter is anti-semetic because he met with Hamas.

I think its a stretch, and, a very unfair stretch. Having a different political world view (possibly based on extensive travel, an insight most of us don't have) I don't think makes one anti- semetic.

Geez, did you support Proposition 8 in California, Rick? Maybe I would assume so, based on the LDS church position on it. Would that be fair? And if so, can I assume you hate gay people too?

That's the stretch you make. You can wear whatever colored glasses you want.

-Brian in SLC

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rick thompson" <gone2moab@...> wrote:
Nothing like a little shoot the messenger.

The innocent messenger, not sure if I buy that deflection considering the antisemitic wrapping paper you gifted Kelsey's letter in. The cantankerous ghost of George Carlin is being resurrected in my mind by the concept of innocent on this one.

> And then this is all topped off with the statement that "America's > support of Israel has been our biggest mistake"? But you have no > problem with this? I see this as being closer to Ahmadinejad than > being benign.

Your interpretations are different than mine, which is fair. Not sure if I make the same correlations between "worst decision" and "Jewish." I see a letter that was poorly constructed, but tried to make connections between his ethnicity/ancestory and possible philosophy of foreign affairs. I did not hear the tone or intent you are inferring. Not sure the "Ahmadinejad Index" is the first thought that comes to my mind either. I think most of us are questioning the jumps(especially their length) your are making rather than the interpretation.

Successful at stirring the pot of soon to be hibernating canyoneers though.

I am gaining a few new words today: exculpating. Thanks. Though I think it may be topped by the use of "Clintonista" in the New York Times today. Perfectly saucy with plenty of meaning.

Phillip

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@> wrote:
> Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.
Based on what? >

Based on his geographic canyon naming conventions, his use of the Metric system in his books, and his abbreviations in his books.

However, that is the basis for MY opinion that "Mr. K does not carefully apply logic". Which is, being MY opinion, something I am an expert on.

Your more technically incisive objection would be to question the "well-known" part, which implies at least several published sources, which you could ask for citations to. Cleverly, I shifted the burden of proof there, by making my statement in a negative sense; and my Google search does not reveal that Mr. K is well-known for his use of logic; therefore my statement is (technically) true.

Tom

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
> Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.

Based on what?
Based on his geographic canyon naming conventions, his use of the > Metric system in his books, and his abbreviations in his books.

All right, my head is startin' to ache, but, put on your best pair of Spock ears.

Since his naming conventions are based sometimes on geography and sometimes on the local names he discovers in his travels and talks with locals, isn't that "logical"? Maybe a tich more logical that naming a canyon "stubbed toe canyon" after stubbing your toe then expecting local folks, and map readers, to understand where that canyon is.

Metric: since most of the free world (and non-free for that matter) use the metric system, isn't it "logical" that he apply it? Several of my USGS maps use metric. I mean, I seem to recall that he actually goes into the logic especially for the use of the metric system. What about that do you find not applying of logic?

"Foto" is short for Photo. He applies his version of that spelling constitantly. Its phonetic. Isn't that "logical"?

> However, that is the basis for MY opinion that "Mr. K does not > carefully apply logic". Which is, being MY opinion, something I am > an expert on.

You have to propose a decent arguement for us to be able to judge.

What arguement do you have that how he applies logic to the areas you've outlined would actually not be logical?

> Your more technically incisive objection would be to question > the "well-known" part, which implies at least several published > sources, which you could ask for citations to.

His put on the mystery of Butch Cassidy is fairly interesting. Read up on some of that, and, see how he applies logic to that if you wish. His arguements, based on a variety of sources, are pretty compelling.

He's published a fair amount of history and geology in his books. Have you found that he doesn't apply logic in those cases?

Alright, my head's spinning. No such liberal arts philosophy classes to pluck anything from here.

Ghost of Spock upon you. Maybe Cap't Kirk needs to b-slap ya. Dammit, Jim, I'm a Dr. not a philosopher...

-Brian in SLC

I offer no opinion on the matter, but...

"Your more technically incisive objection would be to question the "well-known" part, which implies at least several published sources, which you could ask for citations to. Cleverly, I shifted the burden of proof there, by making my statement in a negative sense; and my Google search does not reveal that Mr. K is well-known for his use of logic; therefore my statement is (technically) true."

I'm already bored with the debate itself, but really enjoying the wordsmithing.

"I am gaining a few new words today: exculpating. Thanks. Though I think it may be topped by the use of "Clintonista" in the New York Times today. Perfectly saucy with plenty of meaning."

Saw 'ergo' used on a climbing message board today. Don't see that every day (on climbing message boards).

CP

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@> wrote:

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@> wrote:

> Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.

Based on what?

Based on his geographic canyon naming conventions, his use of the > Metric system in his books, and his abbreviations in his books.
However, that is the basis for MY opinion that "Mr. K does not > carefully apply logic". Which is, being MY opinion, something I am > an expert on.
Your more technically incisive objection would be to question > the "well-known" part, which implies at least several published > sources, which you could ask for citations to. Cleverly, I shifted > the burden of proof there, by making my statement in a negative > sense; and my Google search does not reveal that Mr. K is well- known > for his use of logic; therefore my statement is (technically) true.
Tom >

Yah, the word-frosting is getting pretty thick around this here topic. Smells like teen spirit!

On 11/19/08, Courtney cp0915@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm already bored with the debate itself, but really enjoying the > wordsmithing.

"Smells like teen spirit!"

Here we are, now entertain us.

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "hank moon" <onkaluna@...> wrote:
Yah, the word-frosting is getting pretty thick around this here topic. > Smells like teen spirit!
On 11/19/08, Courtney <cp0915@...> wrote:
> I'm already bored with the debate itself, but really enjoying the
wordsmithing. >

Hey! Grumpy People: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? -oddball

> Saw 'ergo' used on a climbing message board today. Don't see that > every day (on climbing message boards).
CP >

14th Century Latin is not the parlance of technical sports? Guess not...

Maybe we should start a uncommon word of the day thread?

Phillip

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "hank moon" <onkaluna@...> wrote:
Yah, the word-frosting is getting pretty thick around this here topic. > Smells like teen spirit! >

Along the lines of music references...saw an unexpected revival of a Jim Croce song last night. Don't hear him everyday,

Phillip (obviously distracting himself from an ESA publication)

"Maybe we should start a uncommon word of the day thread?"

As this thread begins to spiral more and more off-topic, I've never cared for the whole 'methinks' thing. I see it used all too often.

CP



--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "restrac2000" <Happyfeet00@...> wrote:

Saw 'ergo' used on a climbing message board today. Don't see that
every day (on climbing message boards).

CP

14th Century Latin is not the parlance of technical sports? Guess not...
Maybe we should start a uncommon word of the day thread?
Phillip >

It's not often that we get to quote Kelly's Heros. Guess this thread has some entertainment value afterall.

-------------- Original message -------------- From: "tom" tj_wetherell@yahoo.com> Hey! Grumpy People: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? -oddball

60 years we supported Israel without hesitation. If we hadn't done so would that tiny piece of land be called Palestine and all the homeless Arabs be living happily amongst their breathren. I think not.

If anyone is interested in reading an excellent book on the future of the world get a copy of 'America Alone or The End of the World as We Know It' by Mark Steyn. It definitely will make you think.

bruce from bryce





To: canyons@yahoogroups.comFrom: Happyfeet00@Hotmail.comDate: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:02:03 &#43;0000Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: stirring the pot...



> Saw 'ergo' used on a climbing message board today. Don't see that > every day (on climbing message boards).
CP> 14th Century Latin is not the parlance of technical sports? Guess not...Maybe we should start a uncommon word of the day thread?Phillip





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