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Sterling ATS Canyoneering Rappel Device - Review

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by TomJones, Nov 6, 2010.

  1. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Sterling generously set me up with an ATS to give a good tryout to. Here is my report. Tom

    Matt Andrews Sterling Ropes, Biddeford Maine August 31, 2010

    Dear Matt –

    Thank you for the opportunity to try out the ATS descender. I am a big fan!

    Test Conditions

    I have been able to get a few canyons in, and then we had an epic, and then we cleaned up after the epic which gave it a good workout. The log is:

    - August 10 - Das Boot/Subway = 6 rappels, longest 20 feet. Clean. - August 12 – Spry Canyon = 8 rappels, longest 165 feet, mostly clean. - August 15 – Water Canyon (guiding) – 8 rappels, longest 100 feet, medium/clean. - August 21 – Ticaboo Shelf Canyon – 6 rappels to 140 feet, dirty. - August 22 – The Squeeze – 10 rappels to 100 feet, very dirty. - August 23 – Cassidy Arch Canyon – 5 raps to 170 feet, clean but the rope was dirty. - August 26 – The Wedge and Notch 1 Canyon Epic – 6 rappels to 180 feet, dirty. - August 29 – The Wedge, clean up on Notch 1 Canyon – 6 rappels to 280 feet, very dirty.

    Some notes on the style of these trips seem appropriate. Most of these trips used the Imlay Canyon Gear 8mm Canyon Rope, although August 21-23 used a brand new BW 8mm Canyon Pro AND a well-used Sterling 9mm HTP rope. Generally we mix up single strand and double strand rappels, though most of the longer raps will be on a single line. The Epic of Aug 26 included a 20 foot rappel on an Imlay 6mm Pull Cord, single strand.

    All these canyons are in Sandstone, and most are quite dirty, where the rope gets wet and sandy, and extremely abrasive. Aug 26 and 29 involved a very dirty canyon, but it was dry, so the rope remained dry and was dry-dirty rather than the more abrasive wet-dirty.

    In the past, I have used a BD ATC-XP (for low # raps canyons) and a Petzl Pirana in general. I have preferred the Pirana for the speed of attachment/detachment, friction options and rescue capabilities. At 190 lbs, I find the normal "2" mode on the Pirana does not provide sufficient friction, single line 8mm rope, and I generally use a left-leg-loop redirect biner to add friction and, on long rappels, an additional biner in the big hole of the Pirana to create a Z-rig. I rappel with Atlas gardening gloves and do not use an autobloc except when guiding.

    Observations

    The ATS provides considerably more friction than the Pirana and it took a little getting used to. I found the "1" and "2" settings produced almost the perfect friction level for raps on 8mm rope, double and single strand. I think it provides more friction because the rope path is more convoluted than the Pirana, and because the wider `waist' provides more surface area that the rope runs across.

    On the Aug 26 Epic, we ended up rapping the last little cliff band with the last bit of rope we had – a single strand of Imlay 6mm Pull Cord (actually, more like 6.3mm, and hard-woven static). Turning the ATS over, using the "2" mode, I was amazed that the ATS provided sufficient friction for this short, but steep rappel. Grateful too.

    The ATS was fast to load and unload. All four ears are big and secure, making for tying off being quick and easy – which was very useful on the Epic.

    I did not use the belay plate part of the ATS. We rarely belay as climbers in canyons.

    Wear and Tear

    Attached are pictures of the ATS after the canyons stated above. Wear has been acceptable. You can see a fairly deep notch in the upper left corner, underside, where a single-rope rappel runs. The first couple rappels took off the anodization color fairly quickly. Grooving elsewhere is mild and not consequential.

    Use Problems

    The biggest problem I found is that the left-side ears kept catching the hem of my shorts. And, just to be clear, these shorts are modern, long-shorts (almost to the knee). So like the Pirana, I tend to transfer it to my gear loop as soon as the rappels are finished. Hanging on the gear loop, it tends to "ring" more than other objects on my gear loop (but I think I can live with that).

    Overall Opinion

    I am a big fan. The ATS is a significant improvement on the Pirana, at least for me as I find the Pirana a little short on friction for my almost 200 lbs, using 8mm ropes single strand.

    For lighter people, even in "0" mode it may generate too much friction. I see it not working well with 9mm and larger ropes, where a Pirana will work better. For guiding at ZAC, I see difficulty in getting 80 lb kids down the rope smoothly, even using single strand canyon pro rope (like we do at ZAC).

    Suggestions for Improvement

    I think you would do well to make the following changes to it:

    1. The top bar is where most of the wear will take place, where the rope first crosses the aluminum under the greatest tension. The ATS will last longer if this bar is thicker (taller). Our ZAC guidelines call for retirement when the notch is cut in 1/3 of the way – making the bar 50% taller would allow 50% more wear. (Greater than 50% I think would mess with the aesthetics). How to add it? The ears should not be shorter, and the larger hole cannot be smaller, therefore it adds to the overall length of the unit, which is unfortunate.

    2. From a marketing viewpoint, I think the price needs to match the Pirana or be slightly less. People in general think the Pirana is too expensive. Making the ATS more expensive is a non-starter. I think I am one of the bigger Pirana sellers in the US, and I sold 50 in the last 6 months.

    Thanks for the opportunity to try it out, and to comment.
  2. Curt Walker

    Curt Walker Guest

    So Tom, Pictures?

    And how can I get one?

    --- On Sat, 11/6/10, TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:

    From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Sterling ATS Canyoneering Rappel Device - Review To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 10:04 PM

    Sterling generously set me up with an ATS to give a good tryout to. Here is my report.  Tom

    Matt Andrews Sterling Ropes, Biddeford  Maine August 31, 2010

    Dear Matt –

    Thank you for the opportunity to try out the ATS descender.  I am a big fan!

    Test Conditions

    I have been able to get a few canyons in, and then we had an epic, and then we cleaned up after the epic which gave it a good workout.  The log is:

    -    August 10 - Das Boot/Subway = 6 rappels, longest 20 feet.  Clean. -    August 12 – Spry Canyon = 8 rappels, longest 165 feet, mostly clean. -    August 15 – Water Canyon (guiding) – 8 rappels, longest 100 feet, medium/clean. -    August 21 – Ticaboo Shelf Canyon – 6 rappels to 140 feet, dirty. -    August 22 – The Squeeze – 10 rappels to 100 feet, very dirty. -    August 23 – Cassidy Arch Canyon – 5 raps to 170 feet, clean but the rope was dirty. -    August 26 – The Wedge and Notch 1 Canyon Epic – 6 rappels to 180 feet, dirty. -    August 29 – The Wedge, clean up on Notch 1 Canyon – 6 rappels to 280 feet, very dirty.

    Some notes on the style of these trips seem appropriate.  Most of these trips used the Imlay Canyon Gear 8mm Canyon Rope, although August 21-23 used a brand new BW 8mm Canyon Pro AND a well-used Sterling 9mm HTP rope.  Generally we mix up single strand and double strand rappels, though most of the longer raps will be on a single line.  The Epic of Aug 26 included a 20 foot rappel on an Imlay 6mm Pull Cord, single strand.

    All these canyons are in Sandstone, and most are quite dirty, where the rope gets wet and sandy, and extremely abrasive.  Aug 26 and 29 involved a very dirty canyon, but it was dry, so the rope remained dry and was dry-dirty rather than the more abrasive wet-dirty.

    In the past, I have used a BD ATC-XP (for low # raps canyons) and a Petzl Pirana in general.  I have preferred the Pirana for the speed of attachment/detachment, friction options and rescue capabilities.  At 190 lbs, I find the normal "2" mode on the Pirana does not provide sufficient friction, single line 8mm rope, and I generally use a left-leg-loop redirect biner to add friction and, on long rappels, an additional biner in the big hole of the Pirana to create a Z-rig.  I rappel with Atlas gardening gloves and do not use an autobloc except when guiding.

    Observations

    The ATS provides considerably more friction than the Pirana and it took a little getting used to.  I found the "1" and "2" settings produced almost the perfect friction level for raps on 8mm rope, double and single strand.  I think it provides more friction because the rope path is more convoluted than the Pirana, and because the wider `waist' provides more surface area that the rope runs across. 

    On the Aug 26 Epic, we ended up rapping the last little cliff band with the last bit of rope we had – a single strand of Imlay 6mm Pull Cord (actually, more like 6.3mm, and hard-woven static).  Turning the ATS over, using the "2" mode, I was amazed that the ATS provided sufficient friction for this short, but steep rappel.  Grateful too.

    The ATS was fast to load and unload.  All four ears are big and secure, making for tying off being quick and easy – which was very useful on the Epic.

    I did not use the belay plate part of the ATS.  We rarely belay as climbers in canyons.

    Wear and Tear

    Attached are pictures of the ATS after the canyons stated above.  Wear has been acceptable.  You can see a fairly deep notch in the upper left corner, underside, where a single-rope rappel runs.  The first couple rappels took off the anodization color fairly quickly.  Grooving elsewhere is mild and not consequential.

    Use Problems

    The biggest problem I found is that the left-side ears kept catching the hem of my shorts.  And, just to be clear, these shorts are modern, long-shorts (almost to the knee).  So like the Pirana, I tend to transfer it to my gear loop as soon as the rappels are finished.  Hanging on the gear loop, it tends to "ring" more than other objects on my gear loop (but I think I can live with that).

    Overall Opinion

    I am a big fan.  The ATS is a significant improvement on the Pirana, at least for me as I find the Pirana a little short on friction for my almost 200 lbs, using 8mm ropes single strand.

    For lighter people, even in "0" mode it may generate too much friction.  I see it not working well with 9mm and larger ropes, where a Pirana will work better.  For guiding at ZAC, I see difficulty in getting 80 lb kids down the rope smoothly, even using single strand canyon pro rope (like we do at ZAC).

    Suggestions for Improvement

    I think you would do well to make the following changes to it:

    1. The top bar is where most of the wear will take place, where the rope first crosses the aluminum under the greatest tension.  The ATS will last longer if this bar is thicker (taller).  Our ZAC guidelines call for retirement when the notch is cut in 1/3 of the way – making the bar 50% taller would allow 50% more wear.  (Greater than 50% I think would mess with the aesthetics).  How to add it?  The ears should not be shorter, and the larger hole cannot be smaller, therefore it adds to the overall length of the unit, which is unfortunate.

    2.  From a marketing viewpoint, I think the price needs to match the Pirana or be slightly less.  People in general think the Pirana is too expensive.  Making the ATS more expensive is a non-starter.  I think I am one of the bigger Pirana sellers in the US, and I sold 50 in the last 6 months.

    Thanks for the opportunity to try it out, and to comment.



    ---

    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier.  You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale.  Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

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    This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".



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  3. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    They will be available at the end of the month, from Canyoneering USA.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Curt Walker <w.curt67@...> wrote:
    So Tom, Pictures?
    And how can I get one?
    --- On Sat, 11/6/10, TomJones <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    From: TomJones <ratagonia@...
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Sterling ATS Canyoneering Rappel Device - Review > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 10:04 PM
    Sterling generously set me up with an ATS to give a good tryout to. Here is my report.  Tom
    Matt Andrews > Sterling Ropes, Biddeford  Maine > August 31, 2010
    Dear Matt â€"
    Thank you for the opportunity to try out the ATS descender.  I am a big fan!
    Test Conditions
    I have been able to get a few canyons in, and then we had an epic, and then we cleaned up after the epic which gave it a good workout.  The log is:
    -    August 10 - Das Boot/Subway = 6 rappels, longest 20 feet.  Clean. > -    August 12 â€" Spry Canyon = 8 rappels, longest 165 feet, mostly clean. > -    August 15 â€" Water Canyon (guiding) â€" 8 rappels, longest 100 feet, medium/clean. > -    August 21 â€" Ticaboo Shelf Canyon â€" 6 rappels to 140 feet, dirty. > -    August 22 â€" The Squeeze â€" 10 rappels to 100 feet, very dirty. > -    August 23 â€" Cassidy Arch Canyon â€" 5 raps to 170 feet, clean but the rope was dirty. > -    August 26 â€" The Wedge and Notch 1 Canyon Epic â€" 6 rappels to 180 feet, dirty. > -    August 29 â€" The Wedge, clean up on Notch 1 Canyon â€" 6 rappels to 280 feet, very dirty.
    Some notes on the style of these trips seem appropriate.  Most of these trips used the Imlay Canyon Gear 8mm Canyon Rope, although August 21-23 used a brand new BW 8mm Canyon Pro AND a well-used Sterling 9mm HTP rope.  Generally we mix up single strand and double strand rappels, though most of the longer raps will be on a single line.  The Epic of Aug 26 included a 20 foot rappel on an Imlay 6mm Pull Cord, single strand.
    All these canyons are in Sandstone, and most are quite dirty, where the rope gets wet and sandy, and extremely abrasive.  Aug 26 and 29 involved a very dirty canyon, but it was dry, so the rope remained dry and was dry-dirty rather than the more abrasive wet-dirty.
    In the past, I have used a BD ATC-XP (for low # raps canyons) and a Petzl Pirana in general.  I have preferred the Pirana for the speed of attachment/detachment, friction options and rescue capabilities.  At 190 lbs, I find the normal "2" mode on the Pirana does not provide sufficient friction, single line 8mm rope, and I generally use a left-leg-loop redirect biner to add friction and, on long rappels, an additional biner in the big hole of the Pirana to create a Z-rig.  I rappel with Atlas gardening gloves and do not use an autobloc except when guiding.
    Observations
    The ATS provides considerably more friction than the Pirana and it took a little getting used to.  I found the "1" and "2" settings produced almost the perfect friction level for raps on 8mm rope, double and single strand.  I think it provides more friction because the rope path is more convoluted than the Pirana, and because the wider `waist' provides more surface area that the rope runs across. 
    On the Aug 26 Epic, we ended up rapping the last little cliff band with the last bit of rope we had â€" a single strand of Imlay 6mm Pull Cord (actually, more like 6.3mm, and hard-woven static).  Turning the ATS over, using the "2" mode, I was amazed that the ATS provided sufficient friction for this short, but steep rappel.  Grateful too.
    The ATS was fast to load and unload.  All four ears are big and secure, making for tying off being quick and easy â€" which was very useful on the Epic.
    I did not use the belay plate part of the ATS.  We rarely belay as climbers in canyons.
    Wear and Tear
    Attached are pictures of the ATS after the canyons stated above.  Wear has been acceptable.  You can see a fairly deep notch in the upper left corner, underside, where a single-rope rappel runs.  The first couple rappels took off the anodization color fairly quickly.  Grooving elsewhere is mild and not consequential.
    Use Problems
    The biggest problem I found is that the left-side ears kept catching the hem of my shorts.  And, just to be clear, these shorts are modern, long-shorts (almost to the knee).  So like the Pirana, I tend to transfer it to my gear loop as soon as the rappels are finished.  Hanging on the gear loop, it tends to "ring" more than other objects on my gear loop (but I think I can live with that).
    Overall Opinion
    I am a big fan.  The ATS is a significant improvement on the Pirana, at least for me as I find the Pirana a little short on friction for my almost 200 lbs, using 8mm ropes single strand.
    For lighter people, even in "0" mode it may generate too much friction.  I see it not working well with 9mm and larger ropes, where a Pirana will work better.  For guiding at ZAC, I see difficulty in getting 80 lb kids down the rope smoothly, even using single strand canyon pro rope (like we do at ZAC).
    Suggestions for Improvement
    I think you would do well to make the following changes to it:
    1. The top bar is where most of the wear will take place, where the rope first crosses the aluminum under the greatest tension.  The ATS will last longer if this bar is thicker (taller).  Our ZAC guidelines call for retirement when the notch is cut in 1/3 of the way â€" making the bar 50% taller would allow 50% more wear.  (Greater than 50% I think would mess with the aesthetics).  How to add it?  The ears should not be shorter, and the larger hole cannot be smaller, therefore it adds to the overall length of the unit, which is unfortunate.
    2.  From a marketing viewpoint, I think the price needs to match the Pirana or be slightly less.  People in general think the Pirana is too expensive.  Making the ATS more expensive is a non-starter.  I think I am one of the bigger Pirana sellers in the US, and I sold 50 in the last 6 months.
    Thanks for the opportunity to try it out, and to comment.

    > ---
    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier.  You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale.  Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?
    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
    > This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My > Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save > Changes&amp;amp;quot;.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links



    > >
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