Send us a suggestion!

Soldier Crossing flowing 5/28/2009

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by davewyo1, Jun 4, 2009.

  1. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    Here is a poor resolution video of Soldier Crossing on May 28, 2009. It's not very good on Picassa but you'll get the idea... http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/WhiteCanyonMay282009# The strange thing was that we were there at least a half hour and when we looked at Gravel Crossing the White Canyon drainage was flowing nicely. Then at Ducket Crossing it was damp but not flowing and the same with the Highway 95 Bridge over White Canyon near Hite. So...I see three possibilities; 1. It started flowing just before we got there and, because of the massiveness of the drainage and the sand/gravel in the bed, it just hadn't made it downstream beyond Gravel Crossing. 2. There was some kind of log-jam/sand-damn conglomeration which was (temporarily) holding the water back. 3. The water, as much as there was. was sinking into the sand and was not visible. In any case, White Canyon has flowed and whoever goes through next should be ready for some pools of pine detritus, drift-wood snags, log soup, and/or full-blown logjams. Dave
  2. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    Oh that is just terrific!! Thanks for sharing!!! Allow me to speculate? That is not a lot of water for White Canyon. You could walk in it? How many miles per hour would you guess it was moving? 3MPH? 5MPH? So it would take some time to get down canyon, especially if some pools needed filling. Especially as it is 5 miles of canyon distance for 2 miles of road difference around the Black Hole section and I'm guessing it is similar ratios in other areas. Could take hours with that depth of water, is my guess. Sink in the sand? possible, but if you found wet sand further down, not as likely. So I'm guessing mostly #1, with possible minor assistance from 2 and 3. Great stuff!! I may be wrong, but I can't imagine that log soup or jams would result from the volume seen here. What I would expect is unpleasant mud and plenty of quicksand for a day or so. Did you feel the gravel shifting under your feet? Your feet sinking as gravel vacated around your feet. Thank you so much for sharing!!



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@...> wrote:
    Here is a poor resolution video of Soldier Crossing on May 28, 2009. It's not very good on Picassa but you'll get the idea... > http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/WhiteCanyonMay282009#
    The strange thing was that we were there at least a half hour and when we looked at Gravel Crossing the White Canyon drainage was flowing nicely. Then at Ducket Crossing it was damp but not flowing and the same with the Highway 95 Bridge over White Canyon near Hite. > So...I see three possibilities; > 1. It started flowing just before we got there and, because of the massiveness of the drainage and the sand/gravel in the bed, it just hadn't made it downstream beyond Gravel Crossing. > 2. There was some kind of log-jam/sand-damn conglomeration which was (temporarily) holding the water back. > 3. The water, as much as there was. was sinking into the sand and was not visible. > In any case, White Canyon has flowed and whoever goes through next should be ready for some pools of pine detritus, drift-wood snags, log soup, and/or full-blown logjams. > Dave >
  3. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    It was flowing just a bit faster than you can walk over that terrain, say 4.5, 5 or 6 mph. I should have said that there was evidence of higher flows from what we could see of the wetness of the "high-water mark" and pine stuff that had piled up. There were "nice" lightening storms going on around the Bears Ears at the time we were there, so the drainage could have flowed the day before or a couple of times on a couple of days during the stormy week that had just passed, or any combination. And again, it could have flowed more strongly any of the next several storms that have since been going through.

    That said, I agree, that wasn't a whole lot of water that you see in the video. You could walk across fairly easily with the water just below knee deep, but I couldn't help yelling out like Franklin "Jacob" Adams..."Follow me boys!" as I waded across;-) Dave

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
    Oh that is just terrific!! Thanks for sharing!!! Allow me to speculate? That is not a lot of water for White Canyon. You could walk in it? How many miles per hour would you guess it was moving? 3MPH? 5MPH? So it would take some time to get down canyon, especially if some pools needed filling. Especially as it is 5 miles of canyon distance for 2 miles of road difference around the Black Hole section and I'm guessing it is similar ratios in other areas. Could take hours with that depth of water, is my guess. Sink in the sand? possible, but if you found wet sand further down, not as likely. So I'm guessing mostly #1, with possible minor assistance from 2 and 3. Great stuff!! I may be wrong, but I can't imagine that log soup or jams would result from the volume seen here. What I would expect is unpleasant mud and plenty of quicksand for a day or so. Did you feel the gravel shifting under your feet? Your feet sinking as gravel vacated around your feet. Thank you so much for sharing!!

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@> wrote:

    Here is a poor resolution video of Soldier Crossing on May 28, 2009. It's not very good on Picassa but you'll get the idea...
    http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/WhiteCanyonMay282009#
    > The strange thing was that we were there at least a half hour and when we looked at Gravel Crossing the White Canyon drainage was flowing nicely. Then at Ducket Crossing it was damp but not flowing and the same with the Highway 95 Bridge over White Canyon near Hite.
    So...I see three possibilities;
    1. It started flowing just before we got there and, because of the massiveness of the drainage and the sand/gravel in the bed, it just hadn't made it downstream beyond Gravel Crossing.
    2. There was some kind of log-jam/sand-damn conglomeration which was (temporarily) holding the water back.
    3. The water, as much as there was. was sinking into the sand and was not visible.
    In any case, White Canyon has flowed and whoever goes through next should be ready for some pools of pine detritus, drift-wood snags, log soup, and/or full-blown logjams.
    Dave
    >
  4. nat_smale

    nat_smale Guest

    We did the Black Hole on May 30, and at that point it wasn't flowing. There was plenty of water, and some long swims, but no log jams, log soup or snags. It was simple to get through. One thing that was interesting is that the slot around the hole itself wasn't particularly full. I've seen more water there on previous trips; perhaps a swim of 100ft, not 100 yards. On the other hand there were mandatory swims a long ways below that (at least a mile).

    The next morning, on the 31st, White Canyon was flowing a few cfs near Duckets (although at hadn't rained in the immediate area the previous night). Duckets had several swims.

    Nat

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@...> wrote:
    Here is a poor resolution video of Soldier Crossing on May 28, 2009. It's not very good on Picassa but you'll get the idea... > http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/WhiteCanyonMay282009#
    The strange thing was that we were there at least a half hour and when we looked at Gravel Crossing the White Canyon drainage was flowing nicely. Then at Ducket Crossing it was damp but not flowing and the same with the Highway 95 Bridge over White Canyon near Hite. > So...I see three possibilities; > 1. It started flowing just before we got there and, because of the massiveness of the drainage and the sand/gravel in the bed, it just hadn't made it downstream beyond Gravel Crossing. > 2. There was some kind of log-jam/sand-damn conglomeration which was (temporarily) holding the water back. > 3. The water, as much as there was. was sinking into the sand and was not visible. > In any case, White Canyon has flowed and whoever goes through next should be ready for some pools of pine detritus, drift-wood snags, log soup, and/or full-blown logjams. > Dave >
  5. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    This is great!! It sounds like a bunch of mini floods traveling the long system. Perhaps a storm spanned two drainage and created pulses at different times. And it appears that it takes perhaps days for certain surges to make its way through. The dynamics and "truth" of what exactly happens is no doubt hugely complex. How I would love to know its secrets!

    From Dave... >That said, I agree, that wasn't a whole lot of water that you see >in the video. You could walk across fairly easily with the water >just below knee deep, but I couldn't help yelling out like Franklin >"Jacob" Adams..."Follow me boys!" as I waded across;-) > Dave

    I just looked up what Steve Allen wrote in canyoneering II, page 151...." Jacob's Chair (Wingate feature seen from Rte 95) was named for one of Al Scroup's cowboys Frank Jacob Adams, who died while trying to cross White canyon during a flash flood. He told his companions, "Ah, hell, you c'n cross this." His body was found a day later, four miles downcanyon.

    Heck of a way to get a feature named after you!! ;-)

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@...> wrote:
    It was flowing just a bit faster than you can walk over that terrain, say 4.5, 5 or 6 mph. > I should have said that there was evidence of higher flows from what we could see of the wetness of the "high-water mark" and pine stuff that had piled up. > There were "nice" lightening storms going on around the Bears Ears at the time we were there, so the drainage could have flowed the day before or a couple of times on a couple of days during the stormy week that had just passed, or any combination. And again, it could have flowed more strongly any of the next several storms that have since been going through.
    That said, I agree, that wasn't a whole lot of water that you see in the video. You could walk across fairly easily with the water just below knee deep, but I couldn't help yelling out like Franklin "Jacob" Adams..."Follow me boys!" as I waded across;-) > Dave
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:

    Oh that is just terrific!! Thanks for sharing!!! Allow me to speculate? That is not a lot of water for White Canyon. You could walk in it? How many miles per hour would you guess it was moving? 3MPH? 5MPH? So it would take some time to get down canyon, especially if some pools needed filling. Especially as it is 5 miles of canyon distance for 2 miles of road difference around the Black Hole section and I'm guessing it is similar ratios in other areas. Could take hours with that depth of water, is my guess. Sink in the sand? possible, but if you found wet sand further down, not as likely. So I'm guessing mostly #1, with possible minor assistance from 2 and 3. Great stuff!! I may be wrong, but I can't imagine that log soup or jams would result from the volume seen here. What I would expect is unpleasant mud and plenty of quicksand for a day or so. Did you feel the gravel shifting under your feet? Your feet sinking as gravel vacated around your feet. Thank you so much for sharing!!



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@> wrote:


    Here is a poor resolution video of Soldier Crossing on May 28, 2009. It's not very good on Picassa but you'll get the idea...
    > http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/WhiteCanyonMay282009#

    The strange thing was that we were there at least a half hour and when we looked at Gravel Crossing the White Canyon drainage was flowing nicely. Then at Ducket Crossing it was damp but not flowing and the same with the Highway 95 Bridge over White Canyon near Hite.
    > So...I see three possibilities;
    > 1. It started flowing just before we got there and, because of the massiveness of the drainage and the sand/gravel in the bed, it just hadn't made it downstream beyond Gravel Crossing.
    > 2. There was some kind of log-jam/sand-damn conglomeration which was (temporarily) holding the water back.
    > 3. The water, as much as there was. was sinking into the sand and was not visible.
    > In any case, White Canyon has flowed and whoever goes through next should be ready for some pools of pine detritus, drift-wood snags, log soup, and/or full-blown logjams.
    > Dave
  6. Yes, this is interesting! What I'm about to write may have little relation to what happens in White Canyon, but... I've seen canyon streams (during regular flow, not flooding) that can be flowing quite nicely, then disappear underground, then re-appear, multiple times, all in the span of a few miles. Different sediments with different porosities? Bedrock closer or further from surface? ? I don't know - the difference isn't always obvious. Craig Childs in "The Secret Knowledge of Water" (highly recommended) talks about desert streams that "disappear" during the day, but flow at night. I think he may also talk about flash floods that whither into the sand - I can't remember the details though.

    Near my home in SLC, a canyon drains out of the Wasatch that in a normal snow year, flows this time of year. But it is interesting to watch the progression of the flow. On a day when it is saturating into the stream bed 1 mile up the canyon, just a short distance further up it is flowing quite nicely (maybe 1/3 the flow in Dave's video). From that day, it is sometimes 4-5 days more of this continuous flow before the streambed saturates enough for the stream to reach 2-3 miles further (approx. where it crosses I-215). Seems there must be some deep, porous sediment underlaying the area. How porous are parts of the White Canyon streambed? Don't know. I'm guessing Ram's thoughts on what happens in WC are much closer to the truth than any of the above. :) Would be great to have a bird's eye view of the place as this was going on!

    -john ________________________________________ From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of adkramoo

    This is great!! It sounds like a bunch of mini floods traveling the long system. Perhaps a storm spanned two drainage and created pulses at different times. And it appears that it takes perhaps days for certain surges to make its way through. The dynamics and "truth" of what exactly happens is no doubt hugely complex. How I would love to know its secrets!

    From Dave... >That said, I agree, that wasn't a whole lot of water that you see >in the video. You could walk across fairly easily with the water >just below knee deep, but I couldn't help yelling out like Franklin >"Jacob" Adams..."Follow me boys!" as I waded across;-) > Dave

    I just looked up what Steve Allen wrote in canyoneering II, page 151...." Jacob's Chair (Wingate feature seen from Rte 95) was named for one of Al Scroup's cowboys Frank Jacob Adams, who died while trying to cross White canyon during a flash flood. He told his companions, "Ah, hell, you c'n cross this." His body was found a day later, four miles downcanyon.

    Heck of a way to get a feature named after you!! ;-)

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@...> wrote:
    It was flowing just a bit faster than you can walk over that terrain, say 4.5, 5 or 6 mph. > I should have said that there was evidence of higher flows from what we could see of the wetness of the "high-water mark" and pine stuff that had piled up. > There were "nice" lightening storms going on around the Bears Ears at the time we were there, so the drainage could have flowed the day before or a couple of times on a couple of days during the stormy week that had just passed, or any combination. And again, it could have flowed more strongly any of the next several storms that have since been going through.
    That said, I agree, that wasn't a whole lot of water that you see in the video. You could walk across fairly easily with the water just below knee deep, but I couldn't help yelling out like Franklin "Jacob" Adams..."Follow me boys!" as I waded across;-)

    > Dave >
Similar Threads: Soldier Crossing
Forum Title Date
Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group Soldier Crossing CONDITIONS Sep 9, 2002
Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group BETA ~ Soldier Crossing Sep 9, 2002
Trip Reports Soldier Camp Creek, Hellsgate Wilderness Az. (first descent) Jan 30, 2020
Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group Soldier''s Grave Oct 15, 2001
General Discussion Bass Trail packraft crossing in GC -question Sep 5, 2018
Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group Duckett Crossing Jun 14, 2011