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Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Bluu, Dec 13, 2017.
NEW GEAR !!??????????
Now it's that much easier to milk the kitty!
Nice. Looks awesome, very smart!
Small and medium sized Smoth Sacs now available at www.BG-Gear.com
Size large available in a few weeks.
will these be at the desert rat?
That depends on if Desert Rat decides to carry them. Not sure yet.
I am going in today and will ask Bo!!
Just ordered a medium, stoked to get it in... and a couple SQWURELs...
They are on the way! Would love any feedback you have.
Note: Once loaded with release cord, the Smooth Sac is easy to open and close and gets better as it wears in a little. When brandee new and empty it may not feel as fluid as it will after filling it up.
Sounds good, can't wait to for some play days with the new kit! We use a lesser common release cord than is typically seen in the canyons, but it looks like it will work great! Thanks.
I'm curious to know what you use for release cord.
Amsteel works great but I've also been trying several other types of cord from Lawson Equipment.
For canyons where I'm not planning on deploying a toggle I've got a 1.75 mm technora hollowbraid that packs up really small.
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We use a few different release cords, but primarily we have been using RIT 900 hollow braid (Twaron) - it obviously packs pretty nice for technically being a 6.8mm, but is larger than many choose to carry. The reason behind the RIT 900 is that we can use it as a release cord (with toggle), a pull cord, and we use it as an escape cord. We have done quite a few 200"+ rappells on it using a variety of friction techniques...also in an emergency, we did an entire series of break strength / de-sheath testing on it with the micro-traxion and the ropeman2. It is obviously an aramid, like your technora - so it is a very static cord, with slight elongation due to the hollow braid construction - which we have had really good success with on toggle systems in canyons, mountains, and a bunch in the urban environment. Because it is an aramid - it is not as light as dyneema, and it doesn't float like dyneema - but when utilized in urban areas, the temperatures of the building contact areas - specifically on exposed roofs, limit the application of dyneema usage.
Another advantage which is probably very limited to the context we sometimes use it... when moving as a group, we can divide up the RIT 900 into 50'-75' sections, when we need a pull or release line we can just tie what we need together for that drop, but if we need to use it as an emergency escape line, we tie together and use a spine wrap so there is no need to pass a knot while rappelling...that being said, we tie them together in a manner that would probably get me kicked out of this forum, but we have done due diligence and break testing, and assume the perceived risk in favor of the advantages of simplicity, having the knot pass right thru carabiner while rappelling, and relative ease of untying after loading. Last benefit for us, with the RIT 900, is we use it for nuisance raps - or short raps - depending on environment and topography, we will throw a downsized Spiroll on it for edge pro - but it seems to add an increased coefficient of friction (besides protection of the RIT 900) which seems to help take more weight off of marginal anchors if "soft starting". The Spiroll has no issues falling off when used in a toggle releasable system.
Besides that, we have played with 3 & 4mm dyneema, waiting on a 3.5mm innegra / technora prototype to try out, but we usually use a release that can double as an emergency escape...
Are you a fireman or military?
I tend to be kind of conservative when it comes to promoting ultra light rap lines.
RIT 900 is amazingly strong...until it isn't.
The Sterling hollow block (made from RIT 900) has a checkered history for canyoneering use in the Southwest (there is a thread around here somewhere)
Also note that RIT is NOT certified as a personal escape line.
Curious to know the type of knot(s) you use to join two lines and what your tested strength loss was.
sorry for hijacking Bluu's thread!
The Sac's are totally cool
Hi rapterman - I was a FF/Medic & a SWAT Medic until 2007, since then, I do training and TTP development for units within USSOCOM and operational federal groups, also do some work with Rescue Task Force groups (the term for civilian rescue response groups for Active shooter incidents). I completely agree with your points concerning RIT 900. Most of the folks we work with use the RIT "audible" in the urban arena, but when we head out to the canyons with climbing teams, we use what they use day to day. The methodology that we typically develop capabilities from is a P-A-C-E format (Primary, Alternate, Contingency, and Emergency). It is basically a way to stack and train for potential contingencies. Primary would obviously be the preferred / "safest" option - while the opposite side of the spectrum would be Emergency - which would innately carry the most risk - but the spectrum within PACE is all trained on, evaluated, and risks are assumed. I love the statement "It is amazingly strong, until it isn't". Oddly enough that is a common saying with us - It's all good....until it isn't...
As far as the joining knot - this will probably not go over well, but I would like to state, at no time would I recommend much of what we "do" for operational personnel - for utilization in the recreational or even structured rescue environments. So the original joining knot we did was for use with tubular webbing. Many guys carry 20-22' of webbing (individually). So for an emergency casualty lower, or bail-out - we needed to tie each persons 20-22' of tubular webbing together to reach the distance to the ground...we tried a few different configurations - realizing the only assets we could use is the webbing and a carabiner (typically an HMS). So originally we collectively decided a simple EDK w/ 6" tails was with the HMS met the immediate requirement - obviously fully understanding that we are loading the offset overhand bend in a sub optimal manner. What it did allow was a simple, easy to remember under sympathetic nervous system activation technique - and just like when we pull an edk over an edge, the knot rolled right through the HMS (3-wrap/spine wrap) on the flat side without issue or having to "pass" it. The 6" tail was critical because - if any longer the tails would sometimes wrap onto itself and bind when going through HMS - we originally had concern of the knot rolling - after testing we didn't. Also we use climbing spec / tech tape tubular webbing - not standard mil-spec. About 5 years ago we did some break testing on the two types with small cuts on the outside edges, and were impressed with how the tech-tape held up and failed compared to the mil-spec - the difference of weave made a difference for this. When this technique is used every attempt is made to cut a piece of carpet or use some type of improvised edge pro over the window sill or roof. We ended up doing some pull tests with this configuration - with the mean break strength being ~ 2,014 lbs , the "n" was only about 12, but the standard deviation was good. We had no rolling, but started using the overhand 1.5 and double overhand (due to semantics - for us this is when the 2 ends of the webbing are put together and one side of a double fisherman is tied). This seems to still work and is not too bulky to make it thru the HMS, but the only place we may get the knot stuck - is during the entry into the 1st wrap of the HMS (where the carabiner is most narrow) - if that occurs, you keep your break hand engaged, and with the other hand push the tail thru the carabiner and give a small pull, and it flows nicely thru the other 2 wraps.
All that being said - we do the overhand 1.5 or the double overhand with the RIT 900, maintain breaks above 2000 lbs. It is probably important to state that all starts on the rappel are "soft" starts - where the rappeller straddles the window sill, rolling out the window controlling edge transition with the leg still in the window. The tie off is typically done with a "belt lock" using a rap ring. During every testing , the webbing and / or RIT broke before the belt lock ever even slipped. If bailing out, a toggle or improvised toggle is typically used. We have used everything from a glock magazine / M4 magazine (550 cord as release line - duct taped to magazine) to a chemlight (3 wraps of duct tape over center) - also do not advise, but in the absence of a fiddle or SO.
I apologize for putting some of these practices on your forum, which come with significant risk, but I believe the Context is very different - and I don't promote any of these techniques unless the environmental pathology dictates. Take away the high threat environment, body armor, NVG, "Speed is your security",...then many other techniques would be safer. Please do not hesitate to hit me an email or phone call if you want - we also have the break strengths for 200 thread count bedsheets and extension cord for bail-outs and casualty lowers - but that is probably a bit outside this discussion.
Also - I will pull up the break / de-sheath testing for the micro & ropeman2 on the RIT 900 - just for fidelity - We did it at the same time we did break testing on the frost knot configurations.
And...since ADHD totally kicked in...the reason for the potential switch to the 1.5 overhand or double overhand - makes the knot (nub) bulkier...maybe adds strength by decreasing sharpness of bends and maybe adds additional strength thru the bulk to absorb more constricting friction...? maybe not - all theoretical until we break some... I scheduled some time in Jan to do some more break testing, so we'll see, it may suck, but it has worked pretty good in training....
In case anyone was holding out for the large size....... large Smooth Sac now available at BG-Gear.com.