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Tech Tip: Question Single strand vs. Double strand Rappel

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Mountaineer, Jan 22, 2015.

  1. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    When leapfrogging, especially, SRT is more efficient: attach end of rope to anchor, toss bag, done. Rear guard takes care of the pull. Good division of labor/sequencing, rope keeps moving forward, etc. Generally leaves DRT in the dust (or mud). As drops get longer and more complex (ledgy, twisty, potholy, etc.) the advantage tends to increase.

    Exceptions can always be found, of course!
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
    Scott Patterson likes this.
  2. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    re: KISS

    This acronym is often mis-applied in these discussions. For example I have heard folks say that Sandtrapping is "complex" and not KISS, when the opposite is true. Obviously KISS only makes sense when applied to specific situations. In the case of Sandtrapping, the goal is to rappel without leaving a fixed anchor behind, in a location lacking conventional options. In some Powell canyons, for example, sometimes all you have is sand. Often not even enough to make a deadman, and nothing bury-able anyway other than personal gear. The Sandtrap solves that perfectly, and as KISSly as possible to date, for those of us lacking the hypothetical anchor-ferret. We'll see what the future brings.


    ferret_bot.



    When it comes to the SRT/DRT "debate," there's no debate in a general sense. Both are techniques that every canyoneer should know. Each has its use and as with any other technique, each should be selected based on suitability for the situation. Any debate has meaning only when applied to a specific situation.

    That said, I generally support the view that a good path for beginners is to begin at the beginning, which is (arguably) with DRT in a "beginner canyon" (another hot-button term) with minimal variables.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
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  3. Mike Zampino

    Mike Zampino Canyon season never ends.

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    Is Summary:
    Scott P = DRT
    Tom = SRT
    Hank = Sandtrap
    Bootboy = just downclimb the motha

    ;)
    John Styrnol and Bootboy like this.
  4. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    Bubba = Jump

    phah! overkill. I pweefuh twin 9 mils with ASAP lock backup.

    I'd like to get the rope-end nano airbag inserts, but way too $$$ right now...
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  5. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    and...KISS in the news
  6. AW~

    AW~

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    I dont need this to point out that almost nothing in canyoneering is simple. If you want to KISS, stay home.

    But, I recall this already resulted in a 'almost death' injury. The single biner and clove hitch came undone for whatever reason and the rappeller plummeted to the ground. There were no SRT defenders stepping forward, mainly because if something goes wrong, its kaput or more difficult to rescue.Now of course it could be made safer....and it usually is, but hopefully people can see that 'faster' can result in injury by making it too simple. The other SRT fast method, simul rappel, is another one where 'faster' is not the true name of the game.
  7. AW~

    AW~

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    Yes it is...bolt everything first though right?
  8. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    the "faster" part of the equation came in when Scott specifically asked about it.
    Speed is only part of the equation, just like "simplicity" or maybe even "perceived simplicity" is part of the equation. Also, user error can happen for either SR or DR technique (and their have been deaths in each instance).

    So, I was reading on the other site about a death on the huge Heaps rappel and was not clear what the point was about "how many people need to die when trying 'fancy rope tricks' " or whatever and what I don't get is was the point the people should not even use SRT on a 300' rappel? Should people rap that as a 300' DRT ? or was the implication even considered in the rant?

    sorry about the run-on sentence, BTW
    Sam G likes this.
  9. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    Truth be told, my preference is actually a triple rope technique. A double line rap with a tandem prussik belay line on a load releasing radium hitch.
    hank moon likes this.
  10. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    KISS :wacky:
  11. gajslk

    gajslk

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    Our first Heaps trip, we took two 100m long 8mm ropes through the canyon. But I had to go single line because I was first down the big drop and the other rope was in use one the penultimate drop. Shoulda' planned ahead ...

    Gordon
    Deagol likes this.
  12. Andrew Humphreys

    Andrew Humphreys

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    Not sure why bolting was brought up?
  13. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Double-Rope Rappelling and the "bolt everything" attitude are both signs of people not being enrolled in the canyoneering thing, here in Utah.

    Tom
  14. Mike Zampino

    Mike Zampino Canyon season never ends.

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    How can you even compare those two. Someone double line rappeling has almost no affect on you.
  15. Andrew Humphreys

    Andrew Humphreys

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    I'm still confused about why my comments about DRT are being lumped with the topic of bolting? I've said nothing about bolting in my previous posts. Straw man arguing?

    While SRT may be the dominate technique in Utah, it doesn't mean DRT techniques are irrelevant there. The purpose of any DRT technique is to minimize rope bounce, which in turn reduces rope rub. The application of this principle could be useful in Utah. For example, sandstone canyons are prone to rope grooves which can be caused by rope bounce. A DRT technique would minimize the rope bounce resulting in less impact on the sandstone. Has anyone considered a DRT/Fiddlestick hybrid technique? This could be interesting in a soft sandstone canyon, a rappel with minimal bounce and no rope pull.
    Brian in SLC and gajslk like this.
  16. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Bump.

    Great question, and kindly propose we revisit the thread.

    Worth revisiting and analysis.
    EvergreenDean and Anna like this.
  17. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    I cannot help but analyze and speculate,
    but emotions are still to raw to say much.
    MrAdam and Mountaineer like this.
  18. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Andrew (if you are still here) - We minimize rope bounce by using truly static ropes. CE Norm ropes as used in Europe have a fair amount of bounce in them, and thus are "semi-static".

    I was not saying that "bolt everything" and "DRT Rules!" are technically linked. But here in Utah, they are socially linked, as the troglodyte sector of the canyoneering community endorses both principles.

    Tom :moses:
  19. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    ahh..
    some welcome semblance of normal..
    ;)
    Anna likes this.
  20. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Before I first ventured out (just a few years ago) I took some classes by different instructors. The classes actually contradicted each other on a few "rules". I was a bit surprised at the time: that there wasn't agreement.

    1. lower the first person to set the rappel length vs. set the rope for the first
    2. pull cords vs. no pull cords
    3. DRT vs. SRT
    4. test pull before the last person vs. attach material to the pull side on rap by the last person down

    I believe each rule had good reasons as to why.

    However, rules limit our flexibility, growth, and I would say also safety. We need to learn principles and how they each apply. For us all, especially beginners, it is important to focus on the basic skills and learn them well. Better to know a few techniques and knots correctly, then be confused with multiple in a stress situation.

    Back to the thread: SRT vs. DRT; or rope techniques. And amazingly yes, I remember the classes did agree on a few basic principles:

    1. single line makes sense with water, set at the proper height
    2. if double, be sure both ends are at the ground before your rap
    3. if single, insure the non-rap side is safe, so if someone tries to rig the wrong side they remain safe
    4. rigging contingency makes a lot of sense
    5. knowing how to lock off safely is important
    6. knowing how to transition from rap/ascend and ascend/rap is important
    Kuenn, Rapterman, Anna and 1 other person like this.
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