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Tech Tip: Question Reducing spin

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Mountaineer, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Love those free hanging drops, air time! However, what tricks can be employed to minimize (stop) spinning on the way down?

    1. Use a tubular device (no twists through the device(s))
    2. Keep the rope end off the deck
    3. Remove all twists from the rope
  2. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    "Monty, I'll take door number 1." This TV game show reference may go way over some heads.

    IMO, #2, not enough to even tell. #3, because the twist is now in the core, you might try running a figure 8 in reverse order but that's a fools game.
  3. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Ha ha!

    Even with an ATC, I've spun. But I think that was due to already having some twists in there somewhere.

    I was wondering about bringing a large, light wind sail I could deploy. I could move/wave it to counteract. What do you think? :wavespin:
  4. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    That's a novel idea. :eek:

    An ATC would certainly exaggerate the twist-that-exist. Those things bite the rope so tight you would get the enjoyment of whirling and twirling with every twist. Kids would love it...rather nauseating to baby boomers!
  5. SARguru

    SARguru

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    Visit Riging for Rescue .com, under the specialized training you will see a project that the boys did in the Gunnisson area where they set up a highline across the gorge. The span if i recall was like 500m and a similar drop, the attendant was equipped with such a "sail/paddle" in order to prevent the spin in the reeved lines which would prevent the raising of the attendant..

    Nic
  6. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    i wonder about the spin experiences I've heard about over the years. Having been at the sliding-down-a-rope game for over 25 years now, I have rarely experienced any notable spin, except with a new (or defective) rope. New ropes have quite a bit of spin stored in them and need to be broken in before they become relatively twist-free. I have observed folks making a couple turns in space on long free hangs and obviously feeling uncomfortable with the lack of control, kicking about trying to face the wall and such. I wonder if this feeling can be so intense with some folks that it creates the impression of excessive spin, when in fact the rate of spin is very low (< 5 turns in 300', for example).

    Oh, yeah, and don't use goldline - that stuff spins a bunch. :)
  7. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Hmmm...this may be partially to blame. Just did a free 100' rap today, double strand on a Petzl rope, with no spin.
  8. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    Petzl rope? Static or dynamic? Which model...? just curious.
  9. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    This time with dynamic 9.8 70m.

    Did multi pitch climbing today at City of Rocks due to all the bad weather forecasted down south.
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  10. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Hey, don't laugh. Back in the 70s it was gl or hemp...pick your poison. When Bluewater came out with the first kernmantle (that we knew about) we thought we were in vertical heaven.

    No, I never rappelled on hemp, but there wasn't a lot of options back then. GL, yes.
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  11. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Lost Arrow?

    I learned to rappel on a goldline rope...Dülfersitz. Was glad to learn the biner brake...
  12. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Theater of Shadows.
  13. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Ahhh...forgot that had some free air in it. Not near as exciting as the Lost Arrow launch into space, but, still free for a bit.

    Fun! Hope you didn't get a back ache leaning over to clip Kevin's bolts...ha ha... Great route though. Sinocranium next door is great too.
  14. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Thanks Brian, we had fun. Belayed over to the other bolts for the rap, was sketchy up there on top! Whew.

    Question on climbing etiquette if I may derail this thread. Still new to the climbing world, so definitely may be categorized as a noob question.

    We did "Big Time" awhile back, and waited for those already on the climb to finish. It took a couple of hours, but we were patient. Thought that was the right thing to do? However, when doing Theater, we were half way up and some other climbers started coming up below us. You know, I started to feel pressured to finish the route. Was a little annoyed, but maybe that is common practice? Is this normal and proper etiquette, or should they have waited for us to finish?
  15. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    That's a tough call. In Europe, faster parties pass slower ones with nary a blink from either. And, its done so seamlessly it'll make your head spin. Smiles all the way around. Its really no big deal.

    Here, there's a bit of "we got here first so we have the route as long as we need" attitude. Big Time has other options nearby and it isn't a bad reload to climb somewhere else for a bit to wait out a slow party. Jackson's Thumb has an approach which takes time and you've got a heck of a reload unless you want to bump up to Sinocranium next door (which is very A0-able, the obl rating must be 5.6 A0). Another nice thing about Theater of Shadows is you don't rappel the route (ala Big Time). So, you don't pass back through the parties that you either passed or that have been waiting or just climbing up. Sharing bomber well bolted anchors is another thing a lot of Americans don't know how to do well.

    You can't really expect folks to wait on a multi pitch especially with a longish approach. Can you imagine one party a day on the Exum Ridge on the Grand Teton for example? In peak season, that route is swarming with people of all speeds and abilities. Given weather issues, available daylight, etc, folks wanna git 'er done. I think you have to allow faster parties to play through.

    Neither route you mention has a rockfall issue: they're both smooth slab routes. Yeah, a soloist might drop onto you, or, someone might fall, but, that's kinda remote too. So, the risk at having parties share the route is fairly minimal.

    On popular routes, I think it should become common to expect to share. Geez, get on Cat in the Hat, Birdland, Crimson Chrysalis, etc in Red Rocks on any given weekend in season...those routes are jammed with people. You gotta share.

    It can be a tough deal to figure out this etiquette thing, especially on popular routes. Expect to share. Hope for a pleasant experience. I've helped out parties that I caught, that caught me, that beat me to the base but got stuck on the first pitch, its all good.

    A very well bolted 5.4 like Theater of Shadows is always going to have people on it on any given weekend. Its a great multi pitch for the grade. On everyone's hit list, even salty old vet's. Hence the mixing of talent on the route, and, party size, etc.

    "Starting to feel pressure"...ha ha...that's funny. Heck, you're occupying a high demand public resource...! And no one at the gate to take your ticket...

    To relate this back to canyoning...say you're in a canyon. You're about done with the technical bits, a few rappels to go. Sky is dark. It starts to sprinkle. You run into a very slow party of six. You going play through and/or try to facilitate a speedy exit, or, sit and wait?

    Some of this social interacting especially around "adventure sports" where you toss in egos, especially male egos, take more aplomb to pull off than most of us have, I suspect. Charm school? Ha ha.

    Anyhoo, its a topic often debated in climbing circles, for sure.
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  16. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Great feedback, everything just boils down to KG and sharing, even climbing. :)

    5.4? :confused:





    I thought there was 4th class in there, and mostly ~5.5ish, but there was also bit of 5.7 and I thought 1-2 5.8 moves. Interesting on the variety of rankings from many on this particular climb.
  17. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    :)
  18. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Another issue hotly debated in climbing circles...ha ha.

    Yeah. Its really no harder than the Cowboy Route on Bath rock. Kind of the beauty of Mountain Project, is, the consensus ratings of routes. If you scroll through who's given ratings, you'll see a few fairly experienced and very well seasoned and travelled climbers (Greg Barnes for one). Anyone who's "been around" wouldn't call it 5.7.

    Locally, Schoolroom Direct has a move or two of 5.7 on it (first pitch, finger crack and one step of friction). Tingey's Terror is 5.7. The Hook is 5.8. Fairly well travelled routes for many years. All much much harder than Theater of Shadows.

    First pitch of Beckey's Wall in LCC for instance is 5.6. Much much harder than Theater of Shadows. The friction routes in the 5.6/5.7 range at Tahquitz (the birthplace of the YDS rating system) all much harder. Suicide 5.7 (across from Tahquitz) much harder. Joshua Tree 5.7's, Buissonier, for instance, and Mental Physics, Double Cross, Toe Jam...etc etc etc. All, much much harder.

    Heck, the Trough at Big Rock is harder and its 5.5.

    What other routes would you compare Theater of Shadows to, rating wise?

    All in good fun, of course. Doesn't diminish the fact that its a great route.
  19. Mountaineer

    Mountaineer Is that an X slot?

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    Ha ha!

    Good to know on all these other "easy routes", that are ....harder? Ugh. I need to print this thread, and keep with me.

    I haven't done many Brian, new to the climbing world. I just know at the climbing gym I can do 5.7 - 5.9 fine, but when you get outside on that rock things seem...different? :)

    Hmmm...maybe just me.

    Done Little Time, Big Time (which I felt were easier and rated correctly), a few others up Logan canyon.

    I think a 5.7 was fair for Theater.
  20. hank moon

    hank moon kinetically bulbous

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    Another ratings dynamic is "hard" and "soft" ratings for an area. Some climbing areas are considered "soft" as compared to more traditional, "hard" areas. City of Rocks is well-known to have "soft" ratings. That is to say that a 5.7 at COR is easier than a 5.7 at a "hard" area, such as LCC. In general, the "hard" areas are places where climbing has been established for many years, at least since the 1950s or perhaps earlier. Think: Gunks, Yosemite, Little Cottonwood Canyon, Taquitz/Suicide, etc.

    So, a 5.7 route at COR seems like a 5.7 compared to other 5.7 routes at COR. But it seems more like a 5.4 when compared to climbs at the Gunks (for example). Climbers who have climbed extensively at several of the more traditional areas may use those "hard" areas as their personal standard for ratings at other areas, hence the downgrade of "Theater" from 5.7 to 5.4. Hope that makes sense. If not, check out some of those LCC routes sometime and you'll see.
    Mountaineer likes this.
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