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Public Beta?

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Matthew Smith, Nov 28, 2001.

  1. Is it wrong to provide beta on any canyon without knowing who you are giving it to and how they are going to use it? In the case of popular, well established canyons like Keyhole, Mystery, Imlay and Pine it probably doesn't make a hill of beans difference. The people doing those canyons are probably using the beta from the black book or published guidebooks, not beta from anyone's site. Most are beginners, and don't even realize there might be electronic resources for this type of thing.

    However, there are many special canyons that could be sensitive to heavy traffic, have a particular local ethic, or are unusually remote, difficult or pristine. I believe that this type of canyon is negatively affected by "easy" beta. If someone really wants to do one of these canyons, they should be willing to put in the effort to gain the necessary skills and the respect of those they want to share beta with. I believe that this type of effort helps to instill a respect not only for the canyons, but also for the system. If you had to work hard to get beta, whether doing research, calling in favors, or pioneering routes, my guess is you won't hand that beta out to just anyone.

    By making the requester contact the source directly, the source can emphasize the unique conditions and ethic of each canyon. The source can also make a case for "why should I give you beta?" This may seem elitist to those who are trying to get "easy" beta, but for those who have put in the time, the realization will come that it is merely a way to influence who, how many, and how often.

    For those looking for "easy" beta, there are plenty of good sources. I think Tom has done a good job posting "easy" beta for appropriate canyons, and not posting beta to other, special canyons. I don't think that Shane makes this distinction. I think Shane will give you any beta he has if you are willing to pay him $15.

    As for maintaining a site Shane, you must pay what, $40 bucks a month or something? Give me a break, even I could afford that without feeling too much of a pinch. This is a personal interest endeavor rather than a public service.

  2. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    >>I think Shane will give you any beta he has if you are willing to pay him $15. <<

    Actually if you had bothered to actually read my "Circle of Few" program you will notice that I promise to release the info to the "Circle of Few" before releasing it to the general public. Sometimes this lag in time is days, weeks or months. There is NO information for sale and no promises made. The only thing membership promises you is the warm feeling in your heart that you get for supporting what some consider a good cause.

    There is NO beta on my site which cannot be obtain by other methods which are accessible to the general public such as guidebooks, black book, websites, etc.

    Come on folks, if your going to toss accusations please become informed of what your talking about, and than feel free to fire away....I actually listen and make changes.

    >>As for maintaining a site Shane, you must pay what, $40 bucks a month or something? <<

    I maintain the site as a hobby so I am not complaining but the cost. But FYI the actual cost is much higher than that after all the hidden costs. If I was just maintaining what was already there than your figure might be accurate. Improving the site with new info, better software, better pictures, more space and more bandwidth takes more cash.

    >>This is a personal interest endeavor rather than a public service. <<

    I have a stack of email which would prove that many don't agree with this view....of course I have a stack of email which compares me to the devil...sooooo.......Actually I would say my mail runs 80/20 for those who think the site is great to those who think it should go.

    Thanks for playing Shane
  3. > Actually if you had bothered to actually read my "Circle of Few" program you > will notice that I promise to release the info to the "Circle of Few" before > releasing it to the general public. Sometimes this lag in time is days, > weeks or months. There is NO information for sale and no promises made.

    Actually, the amount of time that you keep your beta for sale places no restictions on who gets it. You just have to be willing to fork over $15. The whole concept is that I send you $15, I get beta and you don't give a rats who I am, what my ethics are, or how I plan to use the information.

    Definition of sale = I give money, I get a good or service in return. I give you $15, I get beta (a good), thus actually your beta is just as much for sale as Allen's, Kelsey's or Falcon Guide's.
  4. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    >>Definition of sale = I give money <<

    If that is how you see it no problem, everyone gets and opinion.....that is the best part about having a personal website....I can do with it as I please. I can give the canyons I wish, set my own standards, preach the ethics I want, just as you are free to do the same.....God Bless America!!!!

    I just wish there was as much money in this website stuff as some of you think there is.

    Want to make a small fortune writing a guide book?

    Start with a large fortune......hahaha...

    So Matt, I guess this means I mark you down in the dissatisfied column? That means my mail is running about 79/21 in favor of keeping the web site as is.

    Shane
  5. > So Matt, I guess this means I mark you down in the dissatisfied column? > That means my mail is running about 79/21 in favor of keeping the web site > as is.

    Is that 79/21 in favor of the site or the circle of few? --scotth
  6. Dick Shear

    Dick Shear Guest

    Hi Shane: Trying to make a buck, hey? Not a bad idea. I haven't read all the postings on this, but when the fur flys, I pay more attention. Love this web site! For what it is worth, I believe that your site and others like Tom's are truly great and useful, but that has been said by many, I am sure. Have you considered parceling out info, like so much for free (great RP) and more for money. While you cannot stop someone from bootlegging your info you might ad a disclaimer or trade mark, or copywrite. Some faxes I receive have a statement warning the receipting that the info is intended for the addressee etc.... I subscribe to an outdoor internet news on line for a fee. Anyone can access some info but for more you must subscribe. If your stuff has value, people will pay. It's the American way. You could pay back some money to people for trip reports that you choose to post, which in turn adds value to your site. BTW, I found this great canyon in Nevada but it's going to cost you!! Just kidding. I believe that this site will always allow us to freely exchange info on canyons and other related (sometimes) subjects. I envy you because you just might make some money at something you enjoy. No, if you pull this off, I hate you!! Just kidding. If you want my money, you better offer a really good product because I am not subscribing just because we have done a canyon together. Best regards you capitalist monger, DickShear, Las Vegas ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane B. To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?

    >>Definition of sale = I give money <<

    If that is how you see it no problem, everyone gets and opinion.....that is the best part about having a personal website....I can do with it as I please. I can give the canyons I wish, set my own standards, preach the ethics I want, just as you are free to do the same.....God Bless America!!!!

    I just wish there was as much money in this website stuff as some of you think there is.

    Want to make a small fortune writing a guide book?

    Start with a large fortune......hahaha...

    So Matt, I guess this means I mark you down in the dissatisfied column? That means my mail is running about 79/21 in favor of keeping the web site as is.

    Shane

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  7. How about posting half of the beta as a hook and then charging for the last half? Put me down as a big positive for your web site and Tom's. Being compared to the devil probably means you are doing something worth while. Usually those type of arguments indicate little thought has been given.

    I applaud everyone's effort for the education on going boltless. This site however seems very biased towards that end. I feel an obligation to take a pro bolt stance to add some balance. After every about every 10 admonishments for using bolts I will try and give a pro bolt opinion.

    Teril -----Original Message----- From: Dick Shear [mailto:pem@lvcm.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:20 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?

    Hi Shane: Trying to make a buck, hey? Not a bad idea. I haven't read all the postings on this, but when the fur flys, I pay more attention. Love this web site! For what it is worth, I believe that your site and others like Tom's are truly great and useful, but that has been said by many, I am sure. Have you considered parceling out info, like so much for free (great RP) and more for money. While you cannot stop someone from bootlegging your info you might ad a disclaimer or trade mark, or copywrite. Some faxes I receive have a statement warning the receipting that the info is intended for the addressee etc.... I subscribe to an outdoor internet news on line for a fee. Anyone can access some info but for more you must subscribe. If your stuff has value, people will pay. It's the American way. You could pay back some money to people for trip reports that you choose to post, which in turn adds value to your site. BTW, I found this great canyon in Nevada but it's going to cost you!! Just kidding. I believe Best regards you capitalist monger, DickShear, Las Vegas ----- Original Message ----- From: Shane B. To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?

    >>Definition of sale = I give money <<

    If that is how you see it no problem, everyone gets and opinion.....that is the best part about having a personal website....I can do with it as I please. I can give the canyons I wish, set my own standards, preach the ethics I want, just as you are free to do the same.....God Bless America!!!!

    I just wish there was as much money in this website stuff as some of you think there is.

    Want to make a small fortune writing a guide book?

    Start with a large fortune......hahaha...

    So Matt, I guess this means I mark you down in the dissatisfied column? That means my mail is running about 79/21 in favor of keeping the web site as is.

    Shane

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  8. Randi

    Randi Guest

    Hi Shane, I'd like to visit your site, but am not sure which one it is. I've been to many sites which were advertised on this e-group (which I really enjoyed), and many of them posted beautiful photo's and interesting articles and/or trip reports (beta?). As far as the bolt issue goes, I'm new to this sport and as of yet I don't see a problem with the bolts. I've used them, along with natural anchors in the few canyons I've visited, and it usually took a bit of observation to locate most of them. They tend to be strategically placed to blend in in or are rather small and unobtrusive to the general land-scape.....(or I could be blind). Not blind enough not to notice the that people leave webbing behind (I packed out what I could reach). Anyway, I do see both sides of the issue & everyone has valid points to consider & weigh. If a canyon is over-used, over-bolted, etc. it will eventually have an impact on the beauty & allure of the place. We (all of us humans) need to be responsible enough to consider what we do, how we do it, and especially (since we all SHARE this planet) how "what we do" effects &/or impacts others (within & without our species). I can also see the validity of people's desire to keep "secret spots" secret. If every Tom, Hank & Shane knew about it - chances are that traffic would indeed increase, trash could accumulate, and the appeal of the place may slide down a few notches on the "cool places to visit" list. It doesn't bother me a bit that I can't get beta on the less visited areas, neither do I feel that it's a good idea to freely disperse the info. Some things have to be earned in this world - and maybe the SUPER-cool canyons are some of them. If you know how to read a topo-map, if you love to explore, if you have an adventurous spirit...heck - who needs beta?. I find beauty and adventure nearly everywhere I go (hooray for me!)....so the "mystery's" & "pine-creeks" of this world have my un-divided attention for now...and when I've out-grown them, then I'll move on with or without Beta.......

    These beta - no beta, bolt no-bolt debates will continue long after we are all dead & gone....hehehehe

    ps - I'm looking forward to meeting you people!

    -Randi

    GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
  9. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    Thanks for the kind words Dick and Teril. There are currently 51 adventures listed on my website and 45 of them are free. I currently plan to keep this ratio but things could change, this is currently a fluid program.

    I plan to add new stuff to the "Circle of Few" program in the future and move current "Circle of Few" stuff to the free list. The only item I promise with the "Circle of Few" is that you will get the information first and get first crack at the canyon. Leprechaun Canyon is currently the golden nugget in the program but I plan to add anther golden nugget as soon as the weather breaks and I can get some additional info on anther new canyon which is both technical and has indian ruins.

    There is no way that Leprechaun will stay hidden for long. Already a bunch of folks from this group have done the canyon and it is located next to a major highway. I have no illusions of keeping it secert.

    I get the feeling that most folks who hate the "Circle of Few" program are most upset that I won't give them the info for free right NOW. It seems that some feel I should publish everything I know for free at my expense.

    Shane Burrows Climb Utah - Canyoneering & Mountaineering http://www.Climb-Utah.com
  10. > I get the feeling that most folks who hate the "Circle of Few" program are > most upset that I won't give them the info for free right NOW. It seems > that some feel I should publish everything I know for free at my expense.

    I am one of those folks who dislike the circle of few program. To clarify a bit, most of the beta that I have received is from the USGS. Mr Topo and I are pretty good friends(even though Rich has concerns over my map-reading skills). I dislike the circle of few program not only for the reasons previously mentioned by several others, but also for another reason. If I were to share beta with you, and you descended that canyon, and then started charging people for that information..hmmm..profitting off of my hard work. You are charging for Englestead, which everyone seems to know about. Just a thought. JKM in PRV
  11. --- In canyons@y..., "Dick Shear" <pem@l...> wrote:

    <snip> While you cannot stop someone from bootlegging your info you might ad a disclaimer or trade mark, or copywrite. <snip>

    This statement kills me. Bootlegging canyoneering info — what is that exactly? Most of the canyons listed on Tom and Shanes site are boot legged form guide books or other locations. Sure they have run the canyons themselves(I hope) and they have taken their own notes but all the same bootlegged.?

    Public Lands are public --how does one bootleg what is there for all to see and do?

    Oh by the way I have copywrited the Escalante Area --please contact me first to get permission to enter the region.
  12. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    >>I am one of those folks who dislike the circle of few program. <<

    Nothing say's that your required to join. That is not meant as a smart ass remark. Kind of like, if you don't like beer than don't drink it, but don't impose on those that enjoy the suds.

    >>If I were to share beta with you, and you descended that canyon, and then started charging people for that information..hmmm..profitting off of my hard work. <<

    Like most canyoneers I have a bunch of canyons I have done and been sworn to secracy about. My standard deal is: "If you provide me with beta and request, I won't publish anything on the canyon until it becomes public elsewhere". Everyone knows I have a website and this has been a concern of a few. Most people don't care if I publish there beta, share and share alike.

    >>You are charging for Englestead, which everyone seems to know about. <<

    I learned about Englestead from the folks at the Zion Ponderosa, they never asked me to keep it secret. You descended the canyon before me but you are not where I recieved my beta, you did increase my interest in the canyon. Keoni and Chris from ZP had both told me of the canyon. I did password the site originally because you expressed some concern. I removed the password when you said in a previous email that I should remove all passwords from my site. You were the only reason it ever had a password originally.

    Since that time some things have changed. Tom removed several items from his website which left me with the only published beta. I moved those items along with Heaps and Imlay behind the screen of the "Circle of Few" until I decide what to do with them. I moved Heaps and Imlay because I am uncomfortable having that information available to anyone who surfs in. I know that you (Kip) feel I kind of stole Englestead from you and I am sorry for any hard feelings. You peaked my interest but the beta came from others.

    This will all soon be a mute point since Kelsey is in the process of adding all these canyons to his next book. I know that Imlay, Oak Creek, Heaps, Englestead and Kolob among others are all going to be included. Any other questions?

    Shane
  13. > I get the feeling that most folks who hate the "Circle of Few" program are > most upset that I won't give them the info for free right NOW. It seems > that some feel I should publish everything I know for free at my expense.

    While I wouldn't say that I hate your circle of few program, because hey it is your site and you can do whatever the heck you want with it, I would say that I disagree with it.

    The way I see things is, if you earn yourself a reputation, it is because you have done the time exploring canyons, descending known canyons, and cataloging routes with people you want to have in your beta network. If I charged everyone I share information with $15, and they all charged me $15, then where would I be? Exactly, just in the same place I am now.

    I largely agree with Kip in the sense that if you want to end up pioneering every route yourself, and never get beta from anyone, keep charging money for your beta. When people realize that you are getting tipped off about a new canyon from free beta and then charging for it, the amount of free beta coming your way will decline.

    The point of having an organization like the (ACA) in the first place is so there is a forum for sharing of information (quoted from your website). That doesn't mean post beta to the egroup, but at least on the group you can find out who might know about such and such a canyon. Remember if we all charge each other $15, nobody is the richer.

    It isn't the time frame of your beta that bothers me, but somehow the notion that your beta is worth $15. We all spend money on gear, webbing, gas, vehicles, missed work etc. that amounts to thousands of dollars. Why should your efforts be worth something special?

    As I mentioned before, I haven't used your site until now, not because of the fee, but because I don't need your beta. How many of your "adventures" are hikes and routes for which no beta is required?

    Now if you were to pioneer a challenging route like Hog Heaven or Wynopits into North Fork for example, I might be willing to pay you $15 just to cover your soiled pants.
  14. tjg@ddci.com

    tjg@ddci.com Guest

    <snip> Oh by the way I have copywrited the Escalante Area --please contact me first to get permission to enter the region. <snip>

    Hahaha . . . spoken in jest, I'm sure, but you've actually nailed one of my pet peeves dead on. I have encountered commercial outfitters on public lands before (some of whom are on this list) who claimed to have the "exclusive permit" to lead guided trips in certain canyons. One of these outfitters actually staked out the rim trail at West Clear Creek (a FS wilderness area) several years ago just so he could confront a non-profit group that I was leading thru there.

    Commercialization of beta? Gee, Shane's $15 a year for the Circle of Few is a bargain compared to the $150 a day or so that this commercial outfitter would charge to guide someone into those canyons (hopefully includes a sack lunch at least!)

    The bigger threat is commercialization of public lands themselves.

    Ted





    bjb@goldfieldeng.com on 11/28/2001 03:17:40 PM

    Please respond to Yahoo Canyons Group

    To: Yahoo Canyons Group cc: (bcc: Ted J Gartner/DDC-I) Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?



    --- In canyons@y..., "Dick Shear" <pem@l...> wrote:

    <snip> While you cannot stop someone from bootlegging your info you might ad a disclaimer or trade mark, or copywrite. <snip>

    This statement kills me. Bootlegging canyoneering info

    ----------

    ù what is that exactly? Most of the canyons listed on Tom and Shanes site are boot legged form guide books or other locations. Sure they have run the canyons themselves(I hope) and they have taken their own notes but all the same bootlegged.?

    Public Lands are public --how does one bootleg what is there for all to see and do?

    Oh by the way I have copywrited the Escalante Area --please contact me first to get permission to enter the region.



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  15. Dick Shear

    Dick Shear Guest

    The repackaging of information is what I was refering to when speaking of bootlegging. Of course no one owns the Escalante Area but one could retain the copy rights of a book, picture, etc., of this area. These protections promote the sharing of art, literature, etc., and by and large we all benefit from it. It doesn't give one a license to the area. If some sort of protection was not in place, much of what we know and share would go to the grave with the writer, artist, etc. On the other hand, there is plenty of free stuff that we all can share. This web site is such an example. Sorry if i was not clear. I hope this helps. Best regards, Dick Shear, Las Vegas ----- Original Message ----- From: bjb@goldfieldeng.com To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?

    --- In canyons@y..., "Dick Shear" <pem@l...> wrote:

    <snip> While you cannot stop someone from bootlegging your info you might ad a disclaimer or trade mark, or copywrite. <snip>

    This statement kills me. Bootlegging canyoneering info - what is that exactly? Most of the canyons listed on Tom and Shanes site are boot legged form guide books or other locations. Sure they have run the canyons themselves(I hope) and they have taken their own notes but all the same bootlegged.?

    Public Lands are public --how does one bootleg what is there for all to see and do?

    Oh by the way I have copywrited the Escalante Area --please contact me first to get permission to enter the region.

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  16. Shane B.

    Shane B. Guest

    >> Now if you were to pioneer a challenging route like Hog Heaven or Wynopits into North Fork for example, I might be willing to pay you $15 just to cover your soiled pants. <<

    See if you had joined the "Circle of Few" you would already know about "Shimrock" which might or might not soil your pants.

    Shane
  17. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Pet Peeves? Pet Peeves? You ain't seen nothing yet.

    Seem's like my blood-boiling-spit-flyin pet peeve is the exact opposite of Mr. Ted's.

    Let's see - someone taking whomever shows up with the money (usually not too outdoor proficient) professionally, jumping through a huge assortment of hoops, paying a hefty fee to the forest service, taking excellent care of the client, keeping them from killing themselves and netting maybe $100 a day - professional guiding - that's wrong?

    But on the other hand - taking a huge groups of just slightly more outdoor proficient people who happen to belong to an environmental orgainization (which I also happen to belong to, but beside the point), sidestepping permit processes when they get in the way, travelling in way too big a group, being obnoxious to all others in the canyon, providing way too little skill to shepherd that many people through technical stuff, for a 'stipend' of $50 a day - because it is under the blanket of a holier-than-thou environmental organization - that's a good thing.

    How about this - say I give $10,000 dollars to a well-known environmental group. Hey, I suddenly get invited to go on a little trip! With some really nice guys that take us through some not very well known canyons, set all the ropes, do all the hard stuff. Plus a pretty good sac lunch to boot. It's not really guiding, now is it? That's a good thing too.

    But, actually guiding people for (oh my heck) filthy lucre? That's certainly wrong.

    Just to clarify: I think guiding is OK. I think leading big groups down canyons is not OK. I think taking VIPs down canyons is OK, but really should be considered guiding. I think making a distinction based on who is being paid what is BS.

    It's just my button - go ahead, hit it again.

    Tom

    --- In canyons@y..., tjg@d... wrote: > <snip
    Oh by the way I have copywrited the Escalante Area --please contact > me first to get permission to enter the region. > <snip
    > Hahaha . . . spoken in jest, I'm sure, but you've actually nailed one of my pet peeves dead on. > I have encountered commercial outfitters on public lands before (some of whom are on this list) who claimed to have the "exclusive permit" to lead guided trips in certain canyons. One of these outfitters actually staked out the rim trail at West Clear Creek (a FS wilderness area) several years ago just so he could confront a non- profit group that I was leading thru there.
    Commercialization of beta? Gee, Shane's $15 a year for the Circle of Few is a bargain compared to the $150 a day or so that this commercial outfitter would charge to guide someone into those canyons (hopefully includes a sack lunch at least!)
    The bigger threat is commercialization of public lands themselves.
    Ted >
  18. Jud Eades

    Jud Eades Guest

    Have I missed the point on this discussion? Why are people baggin on Shane for charging for some "information". Hell, I paid out the nose for 5 years to go to college for some "information" which I found near useless in the job field. If I was looking for some info on some canyons that I hadn't done before and I knew their was a website that had information on them. I think $15 is well worth it. In fact, I wouldn't care if it was non-profit or profit. I have over 50 guidebooks, about every mapping software program, and who knows how many Topo maps. I buy them for knowledge of places to venture. The nice thing about Shane's site is that you can read the descriptions of the other 90% free, then if you want more you have a pretty good idea of what your getting.

    By the way, do you guys have any idea how much money Yahoo makes of these "free groups"?

    We are all supporting capitalism.

    Give each other a break.

    Jud

    -----Original Message----- From: edg78@compuserve.com [mailto:edg78@compuserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:00 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?

    >> Now if you were to pioneer a challenging route like Hog Heaven or Wynopits into North Fork for example, I might be willing to pay you $15 just to cover your soiled pants. <<

    See if you had joined the "Circle of Few" you would already know about "Shimrock" which might or might not soil your pants.

    Shane



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  19. tjg@ddci.com

    tjg@ddci.com Guest

    Hey Tom,

    I wasn't trying to make any distinction between the vices and virtues of guiding for profit or non-profit.

    My gripe is with a commercial outfitter who's trying to harrass non-profits off of forest service land by claiming to have some magical "exclusive permit". That's it. No name-calling or nothing like that.

    The concept of guiding for profit is okay with me, but the public shouldn't be shut out of public lands so that someone else can make a buck.

    Ted





    "Tom Jones" tom@jrat.com> on 11/28/2001 06:18:09 PM

    Please respond to Yahoo Canyons Group

    To: Yahoo Canyons Group cc: (bcc: Ted J Gartner/DDC-I) Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Public Beta?



    Pet Peeves? Pet Peeves? You ain't seen nothing yet.

    Seem's like my blood-boiling-spit-flyin pet peeve is the exact opposite of Mr. Ted's.

    Let's see - someone taking whomever shows up with the money (usually not too outdoor proficient) professionally, jumping through a huge assortment of hoops, paying a hefty fee to the forest service, taking excellent care of the client, keeping them from killing themselves and netting maybe $100 a day - professional guiding - that's wrong?

    But on the other hand - taking a huge groups of just slightly more outdoor proficient people who happen to belong to an environmental orgainization (which I also happen to belong to, but beside the point), sidestepping permit processes when they get in the way, travelling in way too big a group, being obnoxious to all others in the canyon, providing way too little skill to shepherd that many people through technical stuff, for a 'stipend' of $50 a day - because it is under the blanket of a holier-than-thou environmental organization - that's a good thing.

    How about this - say I give $10,000 dollars to a well-known environmental group. Hey, I suddenly get invited to go on a little trip! With some really nice guys that take us through some not very well known canyons, set all the ropes, do all the hard stuff. Plus a pretty good sac lunch to boot. It's not really guiding, now is it? That's a good thing too.

    But, actually guiding people for (oh my heck) filthy lucre? That's certainly wrong.

    Just to clarify: I think guiding is OK. I think leading big groups down canyons is not OK. I think taking VIPs down canyons is OK, but really should be considered guiding. I think making a distinction based on who is being paid what is BS.

    It's just my button - go ahead, hit it again.

    Tom

    --- In canyons@y..., tjg@d... wrote: > <snip
    Oh by the way I have copywrited the Escalante Area --please contact > me first to get permission to enter the region. > <snip
    > Hahaha . . . spoken in jest, I'm sure, but you've actually nailed one of my pet peeves dead on. > I have encountered commercial outfitters on public lands before (some of whom are on this list) who claimed to have the "exclusive permit" to lead guided trips in certain canyons. One of these outfitters actually staked out the rim trail at West Clear Creek (a FS wilderness area) several years ago just so he could confront a non- profit group that I was leading thru there.
    Commercialization of beta? Gee, Shane's $15 a year for the Circle of Few is a bargain compared to the $150 a day or so that this commercial outfitter would charge to guide someone into those canyons (hopefully includes a sack lunch at least!)
    The bigger threat is commercialization of public lands themselves.
    Ted
  20. Greg Caster

    Greg Caster Guest

    Why is it that only members of the "In Crowd" are bitching about Shane charging for access to a small fraction of his website? You afraid that Shane is going to open up your little inbreed group to the masses? Just about everyone who has written negative comments are those who don't need Shane's help and are already part of the "In Crowd".

    I have known Shane for years and he keeps secrets when asked, he provides good beta, he is fun to canyon with and he has helped newbies joining this group as much as anyone on this list and more than most.

    I think Shane's circle program is a steal. It offers great routes along with a look into the "In Crowd" for less than the price of a Zion Park t-shirt. My check is in the mail.

    Greg Caster
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