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Tech Tip: Question Problem Solving

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by 2065toyota, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

    Woodland Hills, UT
    You're still taking them with you that way.
  2. Kuenn


    I like that solution! Putting the technical stuff in the hands of the skilled.
    The perceived "bad judgement", at least from my perspective, was having team members on a trip that involved a rappel of that magnitude (height) without what I consider are basic vertical skills, i.e. passing a knot or executing a changeover (from descend to ascend or vice-versa). Being that "vertical aptitude basics and standards" are largely a personal or group thing, your basic minimums may vary widely from mine.... I get that.
    Forum criticism is in many cases a coward's play and I'm guilty as charged.

    I try to use critique to highlight the "root cause", however in forum chat, without context, facial expressions, voice inflection, not knowing the goodwill of the source or vulnerability of the target... it can often be destructive. I get that too, but hope we all rise above it and not take offence. I've certainly been on the receiving end many times... and rightfully so.

    (Preaching to the choir)
    I think one of the most undervalued elements of vertical rope sports is not the actual technical knowledge, but rather "getting by" without the proper knowledge/skill and then thinking it's; good fortune, good wisdom, good on me. I appreciate that good karma has been on my side more times than I care to admit or have even realized, however I try to not grow to expect it and accept the need to up my skills (be it technical or leadership) when needed, and not rely on karma....too much.

    Please, keep exploring and writing about it....regardless of the troll in all of his shapes and sizes. I grow weary of my own tales of misadventure.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
    2065toyota likes this.
  3. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

    I'm not clear on what you think is "one of the most undervalued elements..."

    At first it seems you are trying to highlight the element of luck, but the blending with "good wisdom, good on me" calls that into question, as the latter suggests a common post-incident memory distortion: that of the fortunate player taking credit for good luck, often downplaying lack of skill as bad luck*.

    Care to clarify?

    * For a recent example of this dynamic sorta/seemingly at work, see HERE
  4. Kuenn


    Yeah, it sounded more logical at 3am.

    First of all the preaching was not directed at @2065toyota 's problem resolution. I think his group handled their misfortune with safety and skill.

    The preaching was intended to be an abstract observation, a potential post-event side effect of near misses, that is neither flattering nor skillful.

    What I was trying to convey is that I've listened to regaled tales of near-misses (and even been party to a few) when the group escaped what could have been, and only for lady lucky smiling wide that day, should have been disasters. And then only days, months, years later hearing the recounted event as being avoided by the group's superior "wisdom and expertise". "Good on me" in this context being unchecked bravado.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  5. ratagonia


    Mount Carmel, Utah
    One of the several dead horses I keep beating on is this one: "Bad things just happen."

    Sometimes, but rarely. Usually "bad luck" is created by poor decision-making. I am happy to say, Kody, I have great faith in YOUR ability to smartly extract yourself from such situations, and you found and created a very successful solution to the problem. Certainly leaving behind a short piece of rope is a small, no a very small, taint, and much better than several parties have done before in that situation, leaving the whole rope hanging.



    I certainly have taken people through that canyon (which has TWO 250+ rappels, and is known for coreshots on the last rap) who's skill set I had not thoroughly vetted. I think we make the assumption you took "beginners", though exactly what skill set that involves is very fluid. And quite frankly, being able to pass a knot is not something done very often in canyons, though the skills involved in doing so are the skills that some of us consider "basic", kinda like the skills involved in climbing a rope and passing a roof.

    I think we ALL do things that, with a problem occurring and in the 20-20 hindsight of the Interwebs acid test, fall into the category of not the best judgment. As you point out, Kody, what is important is to extract yourself from those situations elegantly, rather than as the persons in Arizona did.

    Which brings me to my #1 dead-horse-beaten-to-a-pulp rule: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner (and don't be a beginner, leading beginners). Your beginner/leader is unlikely to figure out a safe solution when problems arise.

    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  6. Sonny Lawrence

    Sonny Lawrence

    This is one of the greatest human problems resulting in death in outdoor sports, especially with regard to snow avalanche evaluation and whitewater techniques. An outdoor adventurer, whether s/he is a beginner or extremely advanced, has success a couple of times despite actually using the wrong evaluation or technique. That success begets more errors in the future. The telling of the tale by the charismatic outdoor adventurer makes it seem to the listening public that the evaluation or technique was correct, even though it wasn't.

    There are times when success leads to the wrong learning and mistakes lead to the correct learning.
    ratagonia, Kuenn and Rapterman like this.
  7. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

    Salt Lake City

    Its really hard to know one's (or someone else's) skills. Experience doesn't mean skilled or doesn't infer correct problem solving. How's that? Good judgement comes from experience...experience comes from bad judgement. Or something like that.

    And...its frankly hard to look in the mirror and see that skills are lacking.

    I wouldn't worry about a little criticism. Take what you need from the feedback. Chose to use it to be better, or, to justify (at least in your mind) why it doesn't apply to you. Or, understand the risk and be able to impart than on the group you're in.

    I think its great when folks share their experiences. Thanks!
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