Tech Tip: Question Problem Solving

Also known as a “catastrophe knot”.

That way if you catastrophically screw up your change over, at least you’re still attached to the rope.

appendix to to the thread :

Retrieving the ropes [ or as many as can be saved ]

my solution

Rig the 80 ‘ from the anchor

Attack a ring or mailion to the bottom of the 80’

Rig the 320’ through the mailion – with the “ longest side “ as the abseil strand leaving a “ too short “ pull down side

Lower the entire ensemble over the edge with the 120’ rope bagged and attacked to the bottom of the abseil strand of the 320’

First man descents the 80’ and does a downward knot-pass onto the abseil strand of the 320’

Man one – then descends to the ground

Man 2 then descends the 80’ – carrying the 200’ rope – bagged

Knot-passes onto the abseil strand and pulls the pull down side of the 320 upto him – and ties the 120 onto the stub

And lowers the lot down to the ground

As he has been briefed – man 1 – catches the pull down strand – and moves to one side – to avoid – it fouling // entangling man 2

Man 2 then descends – and the rope [ 200 + 320 ] is pulled down

120 is already on floor – so success with only the 80 sacrificed

I am not going to be arrogant – and claim – no one can do it with less rope sacrificed

But would like to see someone sacrifice less rope

Is there a better , easier , safer , more elegant way of doing it ????

yup - sorry about that - thats what happens when you let a british caver loose on your forum

this link

pretty much explains the set up i use for almost everything i do

So the best ideas so far in no particular order

1. Don't do a canyon that day, but instead have a class to teach everybody how to deal with every situation that they might encounter.

2. Always bring 2 @ 320' ropes to any canyon that has long raps. Easier said than done when doing a long day as it is

3. Teach class on the ledge on how to pass a knot and send them down

4. Revoke the leaders card for bad judgement.

5. Punish the leader for bad judgement. Still not sure where there has been bad judgement.

6. Leave the group behind, go get another rope, and come do the canyon again and get them.

I'm pretty thick skinned and don't really care about criticism, but this is the kind of stuff that has led a lot of people away from posting here in on the Collective and for that matter on Bogley too.

There wasn't much discussion on rope retrieval other that one mention on using a fiddlestick. I'm pretty comfortable with it, but I knew that almost all the weight of the 300' full size rope would be pulling on it, and opted for the safer route with was closely described by the last post. But I guess most are just planning on leaving 600' of rope for someone else to clean up, or go do the canyon again to retrieve it?

We isolated the core shot, then lowered 2 people, one at a time, that were tied off below the isolation knot down until they reached approximately reached the lip, as it cannot be seen from above, then they rapped themselves the remaining amount down. Obviously seeing the new rope come down to the ground, they had a belay from the 2 people at the bottom.

I then was lowered to the lip and used a whistle when I got to a small ledge just before the lip that would make an easier rope passage. I blew twice letting the last person above that point so he could mark the rope. He then pulled up the rope, set a quick link on the end, reset the rope to the correct length, rapped down, set up a new biner block rappel, came down and we pulled the 200' rope through.

Fairly easy, always safe which was deemed the most important, and only sacrificed about 70' of rope.

Armchair quarterback all anybody wants, but when the situation presents itself, you just have to deal with it the best that you can with what equipment you have and the group dynamics that you have.

The core shot was not done by a beginner, it can happen to anyone.

The initial mistake was made by the rope bag from the rap landed into some shallow moving water which slowly rolled/floated away, providing a nature made firemans belay from below. It was very shallow water and I also would have never guessed that it would present a problem. Something everyone should pay attention to, that it doesn't take very much pressure put on the rope to cause a problem

7. Of the 2 who cannot pass a knot, eat one and sacrifice the other to the canyonapes. (IMO, this should be #1)

Very true I forgot about those

I carried a 300 through once. Spent a lot of time practicing knot passing before the next trip ... let's say I was highly motivated.

Here is one idea for retrieving the rope which doesn't use a releasable anchor. I'm not proposing it for use, only for discussion.

Run the rope through something bigger than a quick link at the anchor. Maybe a big Rocklock carabiner. It needs to be big enough to pass the knot(s) through. Either anchor one side from the bottom and rap single or rap down double strand.

Rope can be pulled from either side.

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this is not just directed at you - but american canyoners in general :

why dont you use tackle sacks - and keep the rope bagged - with the bag suspended fro 1st man // rigger ???

blinks ............... you asked an internet forum for a discussion on ideas

Was looking for other ideas and suggestions. It's the criticism that keeps many people away from posting or ever asking questions.

Other than #4 and #5, I don't see how any of the others are criticism.

#1 sounds reasonable, but you can't teach every single situation.

#2 is a very reasonable answer as to what someone might do and is a possible solution. Obviously, it isn't the only solution, but it is still a good solution unless weight is absolutely critical.

#3 sounds too dangerous to me, at least if the long rap is the first practice rappel where the knot is passed. Still, in a pinch it might be a solution and others may disagree.

#6 is what I would do. I guess if it were a three day canyon or something, I might not do this, but otherwise, that's how I would solve it.

Here's another idea for rope retrieval:

Add additional pull cord to side A. Pull side B until you've reached the knot. Untie the knot. Pull side A to complete retrieval.

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Having endured the 'moving water firemans' a couple of times dropping into the narrows,
I will feed rope out of the bag while clipped to me until it is possible to see a 'clean' rope bag toss to solid ground.
But it makes for a more slow,tedious (boring) rappel for the first person down

I like your solution, Toyota, and were I in your group would have been TOTALLY great with it. Most groups I canyon with do NOT carry two
big ropes for one big drop, but join shorter ropes for the pull down side, as you did.
Without an ultra light pull cord I would never fiddle stick (toggle) that big a drop (too much rope weight on the toggle).
We thank you for giving us all a shot at armchair quarterbacking...
as usual, comments say as much about the commentators as they do about the original poster

.

Thinking this through further... I think this may only be possible with rope lengths that make this technique unnecessary.

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Rappelling 300' out of a suspended ropebag with the likes of a SQWUREL is a twisty rats nest of a an ordeal.

I think it is for about any device. A necessary evil I guess if you have any moving water at all below you.

And just so anyone that ever wants to go with me. Leaving my group behind will be the absolute last resort that I will take to resolve a situation.

But what if you are hungry, and they have the BF% that guarantees good marbling?