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Tech Tip: Question Problem Solving

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by 2065toyota, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    I had a request to post something about a small incident, but instead of just telling what happend and what we did, maybe some discussion of ideas could be had first. We can all learn from others good ideas and mistakes.

    Situation.

    280' rappel. first 70' on rock, remaining freehang.
    6 people. 2 are already down when a major coreshot happens. Of the 4 remaining, 2 experience, 2 not.
    Coreshot rope is 320', remaining ropes of 200', 120', 80'

    What is safest and best way to get everyone down safely?

    The 2 not experienced are not able to pass a knot.
    There is not visual or hearing communication available from the top to bottom people
    Rapterman likes this.
  2. wsbpress

    wsbpress

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    I'll take a stab. Lower/rap combo for 3. Last person passes the knot.

    I'm interested to discuss rope retrieval options in this case. Releasable anchor is one. Others?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
  3. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    Hi Toyota
    About where is the core shot located on the 320' ?
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  4. Sutitan

    Sutitan

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    Core shot location would probably be the biggest driver, but absolute worst case in terms of reducing overall rope length would be dead center, leaving you with roughly 2 160' rope from your once good 320. Then do a lower/rap combo as wsbpress suggested. tie 200' to 160' (half of core shot) with the connection of the ropes happening somewhere after a contingency anchor (so a person could go down 360' with a lower/rap combo), then the remaining ropes tied to the end of the 160' as needed to reach to the bottom for recovery. tie safety knots at the end of the 200, have non-experienced rappel down, then lower them with the contingency the other 120'. Last person re-rigs whatever they'd like depending on the anchor, raps down and has to pass a knot.
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  5. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    Core shot is at the 70 to 80 foot mark at the transition point from rock to overhang
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  6. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    Of the 2 who cannot pass a knot, eat one and sacrifice the other to the canyonapes.
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  7. Sutitan

    Sutitan

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    I guess that really doesn't change much to change my scenario, just gives you more options on how to get a double ropes length with the ability to rap/lower on one side.

    On the plus side, congrats on your new 250' and 70' ropes!
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  8. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    Liking Sutitan's solution.
    Because 'rap and lower' itself can be disconcerting, and it would be nice to be able to maintain a fireman's belay
    for at least the less experienced, the ropes could be set with the (aprox) longest remainder of 240' at the top of the rap and lower line and the additional 200' and 120' tied below as the belay line.
    This way a fireman's belay can be provided from the bottom throughout the entire rap and lower.
    ratagonia likes this.
  9. Andrew J Farrow

    Andrew J Farrow

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    ok :

    pull up 320 - and issolate exposed core [ with 2 knots ]

    lower rope back down untill knot pass = 30 feet above overhang [ this assumes you have perfect pitch lenths - and KNOW that 7 feet will now be " on the ground " at pitch base

    set 120 ' and 80 ' ropes down the rock face from anchor [ with BIG knots tied in bottom ]

    send exerienced man #1 - down the 120' rope to the knot in the 320' - he // she now locks off

    novice one - donetes his descender device to novice #2

    novice #2 - descends the 80' rope on his own decender - and locks off when he reaches the knot in the 320 '

    novice #2 - then puts novice #1s descender on the 320' BELOW the knot and locks it off

    novice #2 - then unlocks his own descender and transfers weight to novice#1s descender

    experenced man one - is able to bottom belay and supervise novive#2 - throughout the above 4 steps - and provide a saftey tether

    novice #2 - then gives thier own descender to experience man # 1

    novice #2 - then descends the remaining 220 foot of the pitch on 287 foot of the 320 rope

    can novice # 2 be bottom belayed at this point ???

    on reaching floor - novice # 2 is instructed to removed his descender from his harnes - leaving it on the rope - and tye a saftey knot to stop it falling off

    when above is done - experienced man #2 - knows that the 320' has no load on it - so hauls the 320 up - and removes the desecender - gives it to novice # 1 - and the 320 is lowered back to pitch bottom

    novice #1 - then descends the 80 - and transfers to novice #2-s descender - on the 320 - below the knot

    novice #1 - then abseils to bitch base

    when 320 rope goes slack - experenced man 1 + 2 - formulate plan to recover ropes with them doing knot passes to advoid leaving anything behind

    200 foot rope was " in reserve " cor haul // lower contingencies if a noivice got into dificuklty on the 210 section of the abseil

    damm it - that took some typing - and sounds a lot more complex than it really is [ i can draw a picture if needed :) ]

    but the key is - with 2 descenders - you can stager the knots - and transfer from one rope to the other - if the 2 novices cannot lock off thier descenders - should they be doing 280' descents ????
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  10. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    why you bring beginners to a canyon with TWO long rappels?

    Perhaps your time would be better spent with them actually doing some training.

    Then again, because you were bringing beginners to a canyon with TWO long rappels, that means you have TWO 300 foot ropes, so that you can do a contingency or a rescue should one of your noobs have a problem on the long rappels, because I know you are a mature and competent canyoneer. So you use your other 300' rope.

    This canyon in particular has seen a lot of misadventure with beginners. As in, beginners producing a coreshot where the final rap goes free, because they do a poor job of moving smoothly down the rope.

    At least it is not Englestead, where beginners go to pretend they are experienced, without supervision of a mature and competent canyoneer like yourself.

    [/rant]

    T
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  11. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    That is exciting stuff!
    Maybe too exciting for novices as you say...
    If the novices are rattled by 'creative problem solving' that involves anything more than a (death) grip on their brake hand
    then maybe it would be best to just lower them the whole way by passing the knot at the anchor.
    Good practice for the experts on top,
    No-brainer for the noobs
    :D
  12. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

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    You don't need two knots to isolate a core shot, just this one

    Just make sure the core shot is in the loop part of the knot and you're good.
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  13. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Or, an overhand on a bight, with the coreshot on the bight. Put in two overhands if you are paranoid.

    T
  14. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

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    Easier to tie, but the butterfly retains around 75% of the rope strength while an overhand is down around 50%, at least that's what I was taught.
  15. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    As usual, I recommend against rappelling with 1000 lbs of steel strapped to your waist, but I know some of you young bucks are in training.

    Tom (J)
  16. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    "280' rappel.....2 not able to pass a knot."

    Being respectfully critical here, that's a recipe for fatality. I.E. on a rappel of that length knowing the fundamentals of passing a knot (which btw) are fundamentally the same as a changeover. Life preserving knowledge at this level. (And the leader should have his card revoked.)

    Given that it is what it is, when faced with unexpected problems like this (especially when it involves cerebral) I almost always opt for the KISS method. Not knowing the aptitude of the 2 non-knot-passers, my first kiss would be to conduct a brief, albeit, intense training session on how to pass a knot. (Students will be highly attentive.) If they lack the aptitude to grasp how to pass a knot (which really is quite simple), then they would also be lacking in anything more complicated. Thus, a lowering/haul-like system would be the next and final kiss, completely taking their abilities out of the equation.

    For securing the core-shot, I personally favor the alpine/butterfly knot. Although, I prefer the twist method for tying one....the hand wrap method can get messy wearing gloves....from my experience. Not to mention it's obvious where the center (core-shot) is going to end up using the twist, more challenging with the hand method and to make a long tail.

    Twist method shown in the first 20 seconds of this video.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  17. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    One more thought.

    With the inventory of rope at hand, the team lead could easily rap down to the knot and instruct/oversee the knot-passing. Then, being LPAR, he jugs up (fitting punishment for his lack of vision) and completes the ordeal. Or changeover to the long rope, DRT pull down his rope, and then down. Still keeping it simple for the majority of the team.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  18. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    That is kind of rant
  19. wsbpress

    wsbpress

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    Here's a little trick I learned in a book:

    When isolating a core shot with a knot such as the alpine butterfly, put the resulting loop to good use when passing the knot. You can clip a tether into it, or use it as a tether and clip it to your belay loop. Just make sure to get the loop length correct. This replaces your catastrophe knot.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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  20. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Kind of?

    Definitely an un-kind rant!
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