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Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by neil wilkinson, Aug 12, 2003.

  1. My vote is let the anchor ride the way it is for now. This is a good test to see what will happen. Before going in and re-arranging just let it ride for a few months and see what people do w/it. If we are patient with this it might be a good learning experience for how to set up rap stations for the masses that won't be messed with a bunch. My gut tells me that 'they' will mess w/it no matter what is done. (human nature)

    Let's wait and see, Neil

    beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: The "Project" was to place a high-quality, compact and overwhelmingly > solid anchor for the final rappel that would allow for a direct pull > and stop cutting grooves in the rock. A bonus would be if the start > of the rappel was somewhat easier, so that large groups of beginners > would perhaps be able to use it somewhat faster.



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  2. Scott Holley

    Scott Holley Guest

    Well, how about if redundancy is the issue, two pieces of nice webbing are equalized on both the glue-in and the bolt above it and one beefy or two smaller Rapides placed below to put the rope through. It should not be hanging down much below the glue in though whatever happens. There is a nice stance there now, might as well use it. --scott



    -----Original Message----- From: neil wilkinson [mailto:mtngoat59102@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 10:39 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    My vote is let the anchor ride the way it is for now. This is a good test to see what will happen. Before going in and re-arranging just let it ride for a few months and see what people do w/it. If we are patient with this it might be a good learning experience for how to set up rap stations for the masses that won't be messed with a bunch. My gut tells me that 'they' will mess w/it no matter what is done. (human nature)

    Let's wait and see, Neil

    beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: The "Project" was to place a high-quality, compact and overwhelmingly > solid anchor for the final rappel that would allow for a direct pull > and stop cutting grooves in the rock. A bonus would be if the start > of the rappel was somewhat easier, so that large groups of beginners > would perhaps be able to use it somewhat faster.



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    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

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    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

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  3. Chris Raver

    Chris Raver Guest

    I've used bolts and anchors that have been in the rock for 20+ years and are just as solid as the day they were put in. I did not see anything wrong with the original bolts in Pine creek so I don't understand why you people had to go in and add more bolts to a perfectly good system.

    what, were they not convenient enough for you.

    sick of this crap chris

    >From: neil wilkinson mtngoat59102@yahoo.com
    Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
    My vote is let the anchor ride the way it is for now. This is a good test >to see what will happen. Before going in and re-arranging just let it ride >for a few months and see what people do w/it. If we are patient with this >it might be a good learning experience for how to set up rap stations for >the masses that won't be messed with a bunch. My gut tells me that 'they' >will mess w/it no matter what is done. (human nature)
    Let's wait and see, Neil
    beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: > The "Project" was to place a high-quality, compact and >overwhelmingly
    solid anchor for the final rappel that would allow for a direct >pull
    and stop cutting grooves in the rock. A bonus would be if the >start
    of the rappel was somewhat easier, so that large groups of >beginners
    would perhaps be able to use it somewhat faster.

    > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
    >

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  4. Scott Holley

    Scott Holley Guest

    I will discuss this openly, as it is something I was part of and supported. I do feel it was warranted. No bolt was "added" by me.

    Last year the final rap station in Pine Creek was moved from the arch to a small slab on the other side of that stance. I do agree with this choice. The arch had an extremely low start that was very difficult to start (mostly for beginners/moderates who travel this route most) if rigged correctly so it would avoid making grooves in the rock from rope pull. With the movement of the anchor, you get an easier rappel start and a better rope pull that almost completely avoids grooving the rock (Rope grooves in rock do eat ropes too, so that was becoming an issue too). We did not place any new bolts. There were 2 1/2" rawl blue sleeve expansion bolts, 1 3/8" rawl blue sleeve expansion bolt (that was incorrectly tightened or placed and spun freely in the hole) and 1 3'8" empty hole in the rock at that anchor when I got there. This is what did occur:

    A) The 3/8" bolt was removed and the hole it was in and the hole that was empty when we arrived were filled with epoxy and sand

    B) The lower of the 2 1/2" bolts was removed entirely. The hole was then drilled out to fit a 1/2" (approximately 5/8" hole needed to place) petzl glue-in (using petzl distributed AMPOULE BAT'INOX glue). We did the final rappel without using alternate anchoring as to not disrupt the curing process of the epoxy on the glue-in.

    Now what we have is...? A solid anchor in a heavily traveled canyon that is more resistant to weather and twisting that a standard bolt/hanger combo? Or did I offend everyone by attempting to do something I thought was helpful/safer? Do I enjoy drilling holes by hand? Yeah, so much I have a hand drill sitting on my desk at work, just in case someone needs one in the parking lot. Make a big stink about this everyone, it's doing a lot of good. If you have a problem with how someone is acting tell them, don't go about it with these vague arguments of what is and is not good. Tom and I have been friends for a little while now, but you know what, when I have a problem with something he (or anyone else) does, I tell them what and why. Kelsey was hammering out holes in the rock to lower himself on, so what happened then? Someone talked to him, he did not listen, so more people talked to him and put some effort into communicating their thoughts and alternative methods. We did not just attack and try to make it sound like some ethical pinnacle was being reached by not addressing what was perceived as directly being the problem.

    If you have a problem with what I did, tell me. I am sorry if I offended anyone, including people on this group, whoever did pine creek first (who has the biggest reason to be upset if there is a reason to be), Zion locals, park rangers/employees. If people do not like the anchor where it is, and there can be somewhat of a consensus reached on where it should be I will go remove the anchor and replace it. The only qualification is that it must take into account grooves from rope pulls, in my mind these are far more damaging than bolts and are usually an issue because when the anchor was originally placed there was no clue the amount of traffic they would see.

    Feel free to email me direct if you would like. I am open to personal attacks if you would like. There are rumblings of the bolt that was removed in Englestead pissing some people off too. Well, fact is that bolt was a total piece of crap. I did not think so when I first saw it and even made a comment about it being "solid". When it was unscrewed the hole was full of sand around the bolt (maybe the person placing it did not have a blow tube that day?) and the whole was completely ovalized (SCARY!). Anyways, and I really would like to know this, why was the bolt in engelstead placed anyways? There is a 600 lb or more rock that has a nice big backside to hold a sling without slipping. I like the fact that Tom will do something and let it be public to get blasted but these people sit in the dark and the people that know who they are won't even say who it is just mention how mad they are. Sounds contradictive. --Scott

    -----Original Message----- From: Chris Raver [mailto:v_2crave@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:26 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    I've used bolts and anchors that have been in the rock for 20+ years and are just as solid as the day they were put in. I did not see anything wrong

    with the original bolts in Pine creek so I don't understand why you people had to go in and add more bolts to a perfectly good system.

    what, were they not convenient enough for you.

    sick of this crap chris

    >From: neil wilkinson mtngoat59102@yahoo.com
    Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT)
    My vote is let the anchor ride the way it is for now. This is a good test >to see what will happen. Before going in and re-arranging just let it ride >for a few months and see what people do w/it. If we are patient with this >it might be a good learning experience for how to set up rap stations for >the masses that won't be messed with a bunch. My gut tells me that 'they' >will mess w/it no matter what is done. (human nature)
    Let's wait and see, Neil
    beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: > The "Project" was to place a high-quality, compact and >overwhelmingly
    solid anchor for the final rappel that would allow for a direct >pull
    and stop cutting grooves in the rock. A bonus would be if the >start
    of the rappel was somewhat easier, so that large groups of >beginners
    would perhaps be able to use it somewhat faster.

    > > > SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
    >

    _______________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

    This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My

    Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".



    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages.

    Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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  5. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Scott Holley" <scotth@p...> wrote: > Last year the final rap station in Pine Creek was moved from the arch to a small slab on the other side of that stance. I do agree with this choice. The arch had an extremely low start that was very difficult to start (mostly for beginners/moderates who travel this route most) if rigged correctly so it would avoid making grooves in the rock from rope pull.

    Wasn't a bad option. Ropes gettin' stuck on that last rappel due to being twisted and in the grooves made pull sometimes impossible for folks.

    "Extremely low start"? Nah. Only a tad rodeo, just around and down. Not super low.

    > We did not place any new bolts.

    Yes you did. You placed a new glue in. Picky picky!

    > Make a big stink about this everyone, it's doing a lot of good.

    I guess I'd rather hear spray about it versus someone who disagreed with the anchor going out and doin' something about it...

    This might not be an issue, if maybe the relocation of the anchor, in perhaps the most popular canyon in Zion, had been discussed prior to happening with NO consensus of anyone in either the local canyon community, or anywhere else.

    Lone rangering popular trade route anchors is tonto, eh?

    > If people do not like the anchor where it is, and there can be somewhat of a consensus reached on > where it should be I will go remove the anchor and replace it.

    My point is that its too bad that this didn't happen up front, prior to the repositioning of the anchor to begin with.

    > Feel free to email me direct if you would like. I am open to personal attacks if you would like. There are rumblings of the bolt that was removed in Englestead pissing some people off too. Well, fact is that bolt was a total piece of crap. I did not think so when I first saw it and even made a comment about it being "solid".

    Geez, if it was "solid", then it wasn't a piece of crap?

    > When it was unscrewed the hole was full of sand around the bolt

    Last I checked Zion has some sandstone...still, I do wonder where that sand comes from... Har har.

    Pull any bolt in Zion, the hole has sand. The purpose for blowing out a drilled hole is to ensure that the bolt or stud will bind up and stay put. If the cone and/or sleeve has bound up, then the amount of sand left in the whole doesn't matter.

    > did not have a blow tube that day?) and the whole was completely > ovalized (SCARY!).

    My bet is that the hole was hand drilled. Tight holes are really only achievable by power drilling, which ain't legal in Zion (plus, those drills weigh and cost a ton). Tight hole is nice, but, ovalized is pretty functional if the bolt tightens. If you do the math, you'd probably see that any moment on the bolt shaft due to an ovalized hole is probably noise level for strength of the bolt.

    > Anyways, and I really would like to know this, why > was the bolt in engelstead placed anyways? There is a 600 lb or more rock that has a nice big backside to hold a sling without slipping.

    I'm going to guess that someone thought that sling on chockstones isn't the best solution for an anchor at that position. Chockstones, even big ones, will move eventually. Some folks think long sling is unsightly and especially around chockstones very hard to inspect (and sometimes hard to clean out too, if the sling jams behing the chockstone. There's a good chance that the person who placed the bolt felt it was a LOWER IMPACT than the sling around the chockstone. As well as safer.

    > I like the fact that Tom will do something and let it be public to get blasted but these people sit in the dark and the people that know who they are won't even say who it is just mention how mad they are. Sounds contradictive.

    Well, I'll put a different spin on it.

    Its the "doing something" first thats might be the issue...

    Some folks dislike the fact that someone from Salt Lake will come down, not poll the "locals" and change anchor locations, add unnecessary bolts, and chop other ones. Then brag about it on the internet.

    Remember, some folks aren't on the egroup, Scott. Heck, some don't even own computers.

    Its pretty easy, in my opinion, to get a local consensus PRIOR to taking action. Why not do that? Gee, you don't have to hang out at the Mean Bean many mornings to realize that's where the buzz is (etc etc etc). Easy to put out a list of folks. Heck, I'll bet if you checked the membership of the ZCC or ZCAC you'd have a good start.

    Or, this kind of stuff could be hashed out on this egroup prior to action. Talk is cheap. But, adding and subtracting anchors causes damage to the canyon mostly. Bolt wars are no fun. Why get into it? Usually boils down mostly to ego.

    > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Raver [mailto:v_2crave@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:26 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    > I've used bolts and anchors that have been in the rock for 20+ years and are just as solid as the day they were put in.

    And...I've seen bad ones that need replacing. As an aside (and head's up), be careful of all the vintage SMC baby angles in Zion. I saw a feller with one that snapped under his body weight. Looked like the protective coating on the pin had been compromised when it was placed, and corrosion finally ate through until it fast fractured. Was on Spaceshot (eeek, I ledged off a pair of those on that route!)...

    If you're ever in the City of Rocks, ask the climbing ranger to show you his collection of 20+ year old anchors he's pulled. Pretty sobering.

    > I did not see anything wrong with the original bolts in Pine creek so I don't understand why you people had to go in and add more bolts to a perfectly good system. what, were they not convenient enough for you.

    See Scott, thats what I'm talkin' 'bout...

    "You people". Get a consensus. Or at least make an effort to.

    Its one thing to "spray", quite another to do and then "spray".

    We should have a get together...folks ("locals" even) want to chat about this, in person.

    Brian in SLC
  6. Scott Holley

    Scott Holley Guest

    Sorry he is right, was a new bolt meant no new holes --scott



    -----Original Message----- From: beadysee [mailto:beadysee@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:09 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Scott Holley" <scotth@p...> wrote: > Last year the final rap station in Pine Creek was moved from the arch to a small slab on the other side of that stance. I do agree with this choice. The arch had an extremely low start that was very difficult to start (mostly for beginners/moderates who travel this route most) if rigged correctly so it would avoid making grooves in the rock from rope pull.

    Wasn't a bad option. Ropes gettin' stuck on that last rappel due to being twisted and in the grooves made pull sometimes impossible for folks.

    "Extremely low start"? Nah. Only a tad rodeo, just around and down. Not super low.

    > We did not place any new bolts.

    Yes you did. You placed a new glue in. Picky picky!

    > Make a big stink about this everyone, it's doing a lot of good.

    I guess I'd rather hear spray about it versus someone who disagreed with the anchor going out and doin' something about it...

    This might not be an issue, if maybe the relocation of the anchor, in perhaps the most popular canyon in Zion, had been discussed prior to happening with NO consensus of anyone in either the local canyon community, or anywhere else.

    Lone rangering popular trade route anchors is tonto, eh?

    > If people do not like the anchor where it is, and there can be somewhat of a consensus reached on > where it should be I will go remove the anchor and replace it.

    My point is that its too bad that this didn't happen up front, prior to the repositioning of the anchor to begin with.

    > Feel free to email me direct if you would like. I am open to personal attacks if you would like. There are rumblings of the bolt that was removed in Englestead pissing some people off too. Well, fact is that bolt was a total piece of crap. I did not think so when I first saw it and even made a comment about it being "solid".

    Geez, if it was "solid", then it wasn't a piece of crap?

    > When it was unscrewed the hole was full of sand around the bolt

    Last I checked Zion has some sandstone...still, I do wonder where that sand comes from... Har har.

    Pull any bolt in Zion, the hole has sand. The purpose for blowing out a drilled hole is to ensure that the bolt or stud will bind up and stay put. If the cone and/or sleeve has bound up, then the amount of sand left in the whole doesn't matter.

    > did not have a blow tube that day?) and the whole was completely > ovalized (SCARY!).

    My bet is that the hole was hand drilled. Tight holes are really only achievable by power drilling, which ain't legal in Zion (plus, those drills weigh and cost a ton). Tight hole is nice, but, ovalized is pretty functional if the bolt tightens. If you do the math, you'd probably see that any moment on the bolt shaft due to an ovalized hole is probably noise level for strength of the bolt.

    > Anyways, and I really would like to know this, why > was the bolt in engelstead placed anyways? There is a 600 lb or more rock that has a nice big backside to hold a sling without slipping.

    I'm going to guess that someone thought that sling on chockstones isn't the best solution for an anchor at that position. Chockstones, even big ones, will move eventually. Some folks think long sling is unsightly and especially around chockstones very hard to inspect (and sometimes hard to clean out too, if the sling jams behing the chockstone. There's a good chance that the person who placed the bolt felt it was a LOWER IMPACT than the sling around the chockstone. As well as safer.

    > I like the fact that Tom will do something and let it be public to get blasted but these people sit in the dark and the people that know who they are won't even say who it is just mention how mad they are. Sounds contradictive.

    Well, I'll put a different spin on it.

    Its the "doing something" first thats might be the issue...

    Some folks dislike the fact that someone from Salt Lake will come down, not poll the "locals" and change anchor locations, add unnecessary bolts, and chop other ones. Then brag about it on the internet.

    Remember, some folks aren't on the egroup, Scott. Heck, some don't even own computers.

    Its pretty easy, in my opinion, to get a local consensus PRIOR to taking action. Why not do that? Gee, you don't have to hang out at the Mean Bean many mornings to realize that's where the buzz is (etc etc etc). Easy to put out a list of folks. Heck, I'll bet if you checked the membership of the ZCC or ZCAC you'd have a good start.

    Or, this kind of stuff could be hashed out on this egroup prior to action. Talk is cheap. But, adding and subtracting anchors causes damage to the canyon mostly. Bolt wars are no fun. Why get into it? Usually boils down mostly to ego.

    > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Raver [mailto:v_2crave@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:26 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    > I've used bolts and anchors that have been in the rock for 20+ years and are just as solid as the day they were put in.

    And...I've seen bad ones that need replacing. As an aside (and head's up), be careful of all the vintage SMC baby angles in Zion. I saw a feller with one that snapped under his body weight. Looked like the protective coating on the pin had been compromised when it was placed, and corrosion finally ate through until it fast fractured. Was on Spaceshot (eeek, I ledged off a pair of those on that route!)...

    If you're ever in the City of Rocks, ask the climbing ranger to show you his collection of 20+ year old anchors he's pulled. Pretty sobering.

    > I did not see anything wrong with the original bolts in Pine creek so I don't understand why you people had to go in and add more bolts to a perfectly good system. what, were they not convenient enough for you.

    See Scott, thats what I'm talkin' 'bout...

    "You people". Get a consensus. Or at least make an effort to.

    Its one thing to "spray", quite another to do and then "spray".

    We should have a get together...folks ("locals" even) want to chat about this, in person.

    Brian in SLC



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

    Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List - working?

    Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer

    To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

    This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the &amp;amp;quot;Edit My

    Membership&amp;amp;quot; link, and change your delivery option. Press &amp;amp;quot;Save Changes&amp;amp;quot;.



    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages.

    Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



    --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.509 / Virus Database: 306 - Release Date: 8/12/2003

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  7. Scott Holley

    Scott Holley Guest

    I will chat about it in person. They have to deal with my slurred speech but I figure that is alright. BTW, there was talk with more than one local regarding what happened there before it took place (at least on my part) and it seemed pretty indifferent. The hole is there, the anchor is moved and people agree it is in a better spot, so why not put in a nice glue in (we know the strength and wear benefits...?)?

    On the englestead bolt, yes, I know holes ovalize almost 100% of the time with a hand drill. It was really bad though. Oval all the way through and pretty spread out. Not a lot of contact for the cone and the rock, that was my concern. If that bolt was being weighted straight out rather than in shear, I do think it would have loosened up really quickly. I will comfortably and will defend the fact that it was not a good hole and should have been drilled over or backed up, period. I hate drilling holes as much as the next man, but you have to say that someone else is going to use that bolt and make it safe.

    Trade show this weekend, I will play the clown, let's get together and bury the hatchet on this crap. I don't understand the secrecy in names still with the locals. --scott



    -----Original Message----- From: beadysee [mailto:beadysee@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:09 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Scott Holley" <scotth@p...> wrote: > Last year the final rap station in Pine Creek was moved from the arch to a small slab on the other side of that stance. I do agree with this choice. The arch had an extremely low start that was very difficult to start (mostly for beginners/moderates who travel this route most) if rigged correctly so it would avoid making grooves in the rock from rope pull.

    Wasn't a bad option. Ropes gettin' stuck on that last rappel due to being twisted and in the grooves made pull sometimes impossible for folks.

    "Extremely low start"? Nah. Only a tad rodeo, just around and down. Not super low.

    > We did not place any new bolts.

    Yes you did. You placed a new glue in. Picky picky!

    > Make a big stink about this everyone, it's doing a lot of good.

    I guess I'd rather hear spray about it versus someone who disagreed with the anchor going out and doin' something about it...

    This might not be an issue, if maybe the relocation of the anchor, in perhaps the most popular canyon in Zion, had been discussed prior to happening with NO consensus of anyone in either the local canyon community, or anywhere else.

    Lone rangering popular trade route anchors is tonto, eh?

    > If people do not like the anchor where it is, and there can be somewhat of a consensus reached on > where it should be I will go remove the anchor and replace it.

    My point is that its too bad that this didn't happen up front, prior to the repositioning of the anchor to begin with.

    > Feel free to email me direct if you would like. I am open to personal attacks if you would like. There are rumblings of the bolt that was removed in Englestead pissing some people off too. Well, fact is that bolt was a total piece of crap. I did not think so when I first saw it and even made a comment about it being "solid".

    Geez, if it was "solid", then it wasn't a piece of crap?

    > When it was unscrewed the hole was full of sand around the bolt

    Last I checked Zion has some sandstone...still, I do wonder where that sand comes from... Har har.

    Pull any bolt in Zion, the hole has sand. The purpose for blowing out a drilled hole is to ensure that the bolt or stud will bind up and stay put. If the cone and/or sleeve has bound up, then the amount of sand left in the whole doesn't matter.

    > did not have a blow tube that day?) and the whole was completely > ovalized (SCARY!).

    My bet is that the hole was hand drilled. Tight holes are really only achievable by power drilling, which ain't legal in Zion (plus, those drills weigh and cost a ton). Tight hole is nice, but, ovalized is pretty functional if the bolt tightens. If you do the math, you'd probably see that any moment on the bolt shaft due to an ovalized hole is probably noise level for strength of the bolt.

    > Anyways, and I really would like to know this, why > was the bolt in engelstead placed anyways? There is a 600 lb or more rock that has a nice big backside to hold a sling without slipping.

    I'm going to guess that someone thought that sling on chockstones isn't the best solution for an anchor at that position. Chockstones, even big ones, will move eventually. Some folks think long sling is unsightly and especially around chockstones very hard to inspect (and sometimes hard to clean out too, if the sling jams behing the chockstone. There's a good chance that the person who placed the bolt felt it was a LOWER IMPACT than the sling around the chockstone. As well as safer.

    > I like the fact that Tom will do something and let it be public to get blasted but these people sit in the dark and the people that know who they are won't even say who it is just mention how mad they are. Sounds contradictive.

    Well, I'll put a different spin on it.

    Its the "doing something" first thats might be the issue...

    Some folks dislike the fact that someone from Salt Lake will come down, not poll the "locals" and change anchor locations, add unnecessary bolts, and chop other ones. Then brag about it on the internet.

    Remember, some folks aren't on the egroup, Scott. Heck, some don't even own computers.

    Its pretty easy, in my opinion, to get a local consensus PRIOR to taking action. Why not do that? Gee, you don't have to hang out at the Mean Bean many mornings to realize that's where the buzz is (etc etc etc). Easy to put out a list of folks. Heck, I'll bet if you checked the membership of the ZCC or ZCAC you'd have a good start.

    Or, this kind of stuff could be hashed out on this egroup prior to action. Talk is cheap. But, adding and subtracting anchors causes damage to the canyon mostly. Bolt wars are no fun. Why get into it? Usually boils down mostly to ego.

    > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Raver [mailto:v_2crave@h...] > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:26 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
    Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    > I've used bolts and anchors that have been in the rock for 20+ years and are just as solid as the day they were put in.

    And...I've seen bad ones that need replacing. As an aside (and head's up), be careful of all the vintage SMC baby angles in Zion. I saw a feller with one that snapped under his body weight. Looked like the protective coating on the pin had been compromised when it was placed, and corrosion finally ate through until it fast fractured. Was on Spaceshot (eeek, I ledged off a pair of those on that route!)...

    If you're ever in the City of Rocks, ask the climbing ranger to show you his collection of 20+ year old anchors he's pulled. Pretty sobering.

    > I did not see anything wrong with the original bolts in Pine creek so I don't understand why you people had to go in and add more bolts to a perfectly good system. what, were they not convenient enough for you.

    See Scott, thats what I'm talkin' 'bout...

    "You people". Get a consensus. Or at least make an effort to.

    Its one thing to "spray", quite another to do and then "spray".

    We should have a get together...folks ("locals" even) want to chat about this, in person.

    Brian in SLC



    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

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  8. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@y...> wrote:

    > This might not be an issue, if maybe the relocation of the anchor, > in perhaps the most popular canyon in Zion, had been discussed prior to happening with NO consensus of anyone in either the local canyon community, or anywhere else. >

    Did to!

    Who's on the committee? When does the committee meet? Every other Tuesday Morning at the Mean Bean?


    My bet is that the hole was hand drilled. Tight holes are really > only achievable by power drilling, which ain't legal in Zion (plus, > those drills weigh and cost a ton). Tight hole is nice, but, > ovalized is pretty functional if the bolt tightens. If you do the > math, you'd probably see that any moment on the bolt shaft due to an ovalized hole is probably noise level for strength of the bolt. >

    I can make almost perfect holes (1/2") with hand tools.

    That bolt was kind of crappy. Personal opinion. If **** put it in to make the canyon safer for guiding, then he is mis-guided. That bolt was a time-bomb, admittedly with a long fuse.

    > I'm going to guess that someone thought that sling on chockstones > isn't the best solution for an anchor at that position. > Chockstones, even big ones, will move eventually. Some folks think > long sling is unsightly and especially around chockstones very hard > to inspect (and sometimes hard to clean out too, if the sling jams > behing the chockstone. There's a good chance that the person who > placed the bolt felt it was a LOWER IMPACT than the sling around the chockstone. As well as safer.

    While your reasoning in general makes sense, it does not apply to this particular drop. The geometry of the chockstone is not like what you describe. Personally, I liked just looping the rope around this stone, but it does not "flag" the anchor, and subsequent parties became confused and left a sling.

    Tom
  9. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <tom@j...> wrote: > Did to!
    Who's on the committee? When does the committee meet? Every other > Tuesday Morning at the Mean Bean?

    How many of the folks who were at the Access Fund sponsered cleanup (and ZCC attended, etc) that were from St. George, Springdale, and/or Cedar City did you talk to prior to moving the anchor?

    Most of them were there...was a very good sprinklin' of the local folk.

    You were there. You (should) know who they are.

    > That bolt was kind of crappy. Personal opinion. If **** put it in to make the canyon safer for guiding, then he is mis-guided. That bolt was a time-bomb, admittedly with a long fuse.

    Talk to him directly. PM'd the time and place.

    > While your reasoning in general makes sense, it does not apply to > this particular drop. The geometry of the chockstone is not like > what you describe.

    Well, even though my memory ain't so good sometimes...I do have pictures of it...

    Gee, didn't "someone" else add an unnecessary bolt near there a while back...(ha ha)...

    > Personally, I liked just looping the rope around > this stone, but it does not "flag" the anchor, and subsequent parties became confused and left a sling.

    Personal preference. Rope grooves. Confusion.

    Be nice if you folk who insist on gettin' into bolt wars would sit down and have a friendly chat before this gets out of hand...

    There's got to be some common ground. Would benefit everyone.

    Thanks,

    Brian in SLC
  10. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@y...> wrote: > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <tom@j...> wrote:

    > Personally, I liked just looping the rope around
    this stone, but it does not "flag" the anchor, and subsequent > parties became confused and left a sling.
    Personal preference. Rope grooves. Confusion.

    Tom has the right take on the drop. Easy set with just rope. Done rappin? Flick rope once or twice and down it comes. No grooves. Confusion because not flagged? Well, maybe, but this is one of the most obvious anchors anywhere. I dare say even I could figure this one out.

    RAM
  11. jim butler

    jim butler Guest

    Thanks Brian. I am from Cedar Clity and I was at the access fund cleanup and have met tom around a few times, (including once in Kolob Creek) and have never been asked what i think of bolts in Zion. hmm. Jim Butler --- beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" > <tom@j...> wrote:
    Did to!

    Who's on the committee? When does the committee > meet? Every > other
    Tuesday Morning at the Mean Bean?
    How many of the folks who were at the Access Fund > sponsered cleanup > (and ZCC attended, etc) that were from St. George, > Springdale, > and/or Cedar City did you talk to prior to moving > the anchor?
    Most of them were there...was a very good sprinklin' > of the local > folk.
    You were there. You (should) know who they are.
    > That bolt was kind of crappy. Personal opinion. > If **** put it > in to make the canyon safer for guiding, then he is > mis-guided. > That bolt was a time-bomb, admittedly with a long > fuse.
    Talk to him directly. PM'd the time and place.
    > While your reasoning in general makes sense, it > does not apply to
    this particular drop. The geometry of the > chockstone is not like
    what you describe.
    Well, even though my memory ain't so good > sometimes...I do have > pictures of it...
    Gee, didn't "someone" else add an unnecessary bolt > near there a > while back...(ha ha)...
    > Personally, I liked just looping the rope around
    this stone, but it does not "flag" the anchor, and > subsequent > parties became confused and left a sling.
    Personal preference. Rope grooves. Confusion.
    Be nice if you folk who insist on gettin' into bolt > wars would sit > down and have a friendly chat before this gets out > of hand...
    There's got to be some common ground. Would benefit > everyone.
    Thanks,
    Brian in SLC


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  12. Scott,

    Could you explain further about your comment below. The way it reads to me is that you left an uncured, unsecure bolt that looked very sturdy in a canyon where someone could have rappelled off it a few minutes later. In addition, if rappelling off it in an uncured state affects the strength in any way, than this bolt is questionable as it's curing history is unknown. This doesn't sound like a safe thing to do, although I'm not an expert on epoxy or bolt setting.

    Steve

    > We did > the final rappel without using alternate anchoring as to not disrupt > the curing process of the epoxy on the glue-in.
  13. Scott Holley

    Scott Holley Guest

    The glue-in that was placed takes about 30 minutes to cure in the temperatures that were present. We would have been safe to rap off that anchor when we left, but did not because if you give it more time then it can't hurt, right? I seriously doubt anyone being behind us, but if they were and used that anchor then it would not be cause for concern. We started the hike out at around 7:30 I imagine, so the only people that could have been behind us realistically would be people doing a night canyon and they would have likely been a few hours behind us. Fair question though, hope I answered everything. --scott



    -----Original Message----- From: Steve Newcomb [mailto:sanewcomb@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 10:17 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Pine Creek (Zion) Update - last anchor

    Scott,

    Could you explain further about your comment below. The way it reads to me is that you left an uncured, unsecure bolt that looked very sturdy in a canyon where someone could have rappelled off it a few minutes later. In addition, if rappelling off it in an uncured state affects the strength in any way, than this bolt is questionable as it's curing history is unknown. This doesn't sound like a safe thing to do, although I'm not an expert on epoxy or bolt setting.

    Steve

    > We did > the final rappel without using alternate anchoring as to not disrupt > the curing process of the epoxy on the glue-in.





    When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:

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