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Petzl Dual Connect Adjust - canyoneering app?

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Brian in SLC, Jun 4, 2015.

  1. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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  2. Sonny Lawrence

    Sonny Lawrence

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    Cavers have made their own similar devices by having long cow's tails with prusiks on them to adjust the length. They get caught on pointy things. So I prefer more streamlined tethers.
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  3. Chad

    Chad

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    My brother-in-law just told me about this the other day. Thanks for posting the link, it looks pretty nice! I'd like to test it out and see, but it looks like a step up from my Spelegyca.
  4. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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  5. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    seems like a lot of loose tail to have flapping around.. YMMV
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  6. tom wetherell

    tom wetherell tom(w)

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    Lots of floppy tail.

    I'd like to see the instructions/warnings. Can the mechanism be released (in a controlled fashion) under load? What about simultaneously loading across the strands? Energy absorption of a fall? It could be really nice if it is really versatile, but no so much if it is isn't multifunction.
  7. townsend

    townsend

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    It could be worth it. Simply homemade prusiks are a couple of bucks to make; the VT prusik is 17.00. For me, the VT prusik is money well spent (more versatile, easy to use).
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  8. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Made a couple just this week. Good use for rope shorts.

    A typical setup is one of these as a PAS (below) and a daisy-chain. I prefer them being separate, but I can see where, in the right application, having it together could be a benefit.
    IMG_0141.JPG
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2015
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  9. Anna

    Anna

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    Okay, this looks like a really cool system, and I'd love to make some for myself. I have a question, though: how did you attach the non-Prusik side (left side in your picture) of the Prusik loop to the rope? It's wrapped around the rope piece somehow, but I can't tell exactly how from the picture. It looks like there needs to be some knot or something to keep the cord from slipping through the top of the (fisherman's?) knot that's made on the left side of the rope.
  10. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Maybe it is just my taste in these kinda things, but I find it odd that some of the inquisitive beginnerish people seem to go for the complicated THINGS (Purcell Prusik, Totem, the thing illustrated here, PAS or daisy chain) while the more experienced person seem to go for the more primitive equipment (Tibloc, Clipster, Sqwurel, Critr, slings, biners).

    I see something complicated like this and think that it could be good in some special, very specific applications that thankfully rarely occur in canyoneering. Rather than learn fancy tools that rarely apply, I suggest using basic things you carry anyway and figure out how to use them for whatever needs to happen.

    Perhaps I have not offered this before but... Anna, come up to Zion. I will take you and yours out for a day of training, free. Email me.

    Tom :moses:
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  11. Anna

    Anna

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    1. But homemade gear is so fun! It's like crafting for non-crafters...

    2a. When you're a noob who's been canyoneering two years and haven't figured out exactly what you like, maybe things like this just seem more interesting. But honestly, I'm noobish and inquisitive about all gear-and-safety-related things, not only the weird complicated ones. Because I can really only hold the knowledge of a few things in my head at a time, I actually gravitate toward ones that contain things I understand...which this one seemed to be (Prusik wrapped around rope, I understand that). But true, this isn't a Clipster!

    2b. But it's such a clever idea! I was not thinking of it exclusively (or even mainly) for canyons...you're right of course, its uses are probably limited there. But as just a cheap general purpose analog-adjustable personal tether, it seems useful. E.g., when I'm cleaning a sport climb and the anchor bolts are uneven and at a weird/awkward position (not uncommon in Tucson).

    2c. The sqwurel is freaking awesome. Love!

    3. Um, are you serious?!? If all it takes to meet you and get schooled is making one dumb noobish comment, I wish I had done it a year ago! Darn lurking.
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  12. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Anna, I agree with what has been stated here. Keeping things basic and uncomplicated will cover the vast majority of on-rope needs. What it comes down to is; helmet, harness, ropes, descending device and Carabiners - pretty much after that, everything else is an accessory/trinket. And trinkets will vary from person to person.

    As for Tom's offer, you need to snatch that up! I'm sure you realize that. What you can learn from an experienced person, like Mr. Jones, even if it is only one afternoon, could possibly save you many trips of trial and error. It's like going to the back of the teacher's book for the answers.

    Now for this "complicated" thingy in question.... it is an adjustable tether, that is all. It's not complicated (making one may be is a little) anymore than any tether is complicated. I happen to use it as the tether for a PAS (personal anchor system), or in my circles we call it a QAS (quick attach safety). I admit it is a trinket, however to me, it's a trinket everyone should seriously consider having. Regardless of what you affix to the working end your PAS; handled ascender, Basic, or some other rope grabbing device, if I'm around a rope, this thing is close by.

    Just got in from participating in an all-day vertical onsite training session today. I used this tethered QAS muchos muchos times. Great device for safely attaching to a rope and discussing with a student what's happening, while at the same time knowing everyone is safely anchored.

    pic1-001.
    This picture is from today. Justin (shown), has his QAS attached above mine (I'm about to rappel). Justin is very new to the sport (<1 year), he just rigged this drop (his first rig), and we are going over some other rigging stuff. We are 2 feet from a sloping edge to a 130' drop - which I would never even consider doing, without all being on safety.
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  13. Anna

    Anna

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    Um, yes, I 100% know how awesome Tom is and fully intend to take him up on his super-generous offer (and buy dinner and drinks) when he has time to meet up! Message already sent. I just lurk and ask questions here because I have nothing of value to contribute (yet!) -- all of you guys have way more experience and knowledge than I do. Even just lurking has taught me a lot...to actually meet any of you would be hugely beneficial.

    It's cool to see what you like to use your tether for! I am interested in your idea of attaching yourself to the rope with the ascender instead of at the anchor with a carabiner -- it makes perfect sense, but I wouldn't have thought of it, I guess. I wanted to make one of the tethers for myself with a carabiner attached instead of an ascender for use when climbing. I just made a bunch of Purcell Prusiks for the same purpose, but this is another cool way to do it, and I like that you could use dynamic rope if you want.

    Anyway, thanks for the extra information! Maybe when I've canyoneered for 20 more years, and done a lot more learning, I'll know what trinkets do and and don't work for me. In the meantime I have to do all that learning haha.
  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I realize in a CAVING context it is very simple. In a CANYONEERING context, it is excessive and frivolous, and to some extent dangerous.

    Having extra stuff on your harness and connected to you is dangerous in some canyoneering contexts. I realize that walking between rappels in Zion is not one of those contexts. In moving water, when rappelling through bushes and trees, when jumping and sliding, when downclimbing - excess things hanging from your harness can kill you. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen, and when it happens to you, it counts.

    Tom
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  15. townsend

    townsend

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    Don't have a bone to pick in this discussion, but if one likes the adjustability factor of QAS (which is really cool), maybe the simplest and safest alternative would be a chain reactor + biner -- fairly simple and each pocket offers step-wise adjustability. Of course, we all know the daisy chain construct model isn't safe, unless you know how to (and not to) clip into it. Chain reactor has other uses as well (e.g., extend rappel device, etc.).
  16. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    My beef is with long, adjustable safety slings.

    You don't need adjustable. You are not climbing big walls, you do not need adjustable. At arm's length is plenty. Need more length - add a sling to the anchor, for everyone to clip into.

    Long is bad. Catches on things - can be dangerous. Requires time and effort to manage.

    I remember at a Rendezvous in SoCal when the PAS was so popular with the ATS trained crowd. I sat manning a rappel station, and had 10 people clip into the anchor, get set up on rappel, then, with one hand, spend about a minute putting their Chain Reactor away. Six rappels - that's an hour lost for the group, to no benefit to anyone. Picayune I know. Probably only half that long really, but...

    The danger to being stuck in moving water to me is the real absolute no no no no no.

    Tom
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  17. Anna

    Anna

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    This is a good point, thanks for mentioning it. In flowing water, what do you like to keep on your harness? Just a simple clipster-like tether + a couple of carabiners, with the rest in a pack?
  18. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    exactly.

    Tom
  19. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    (retro reference alert) So I'm feeling like a cast member on the broadway musical Oklahoma...not sure if I'm the farmer or the cowman.

    I do realize I'm posting (which I do too much of) on a canyoneering site, and I at least try to keep my views, comments and opinions in focus. As for the on-rope differences between caving and canyoneering, it's more about genre and style than it is about substance, IMO. Acknowledging to some slight insignificant differences.

    Having any stuff hanging from ones harness is a potential hazard; in water, around edges, down-climbs, crawling with one ear submerged and the other scraping the ceiling, etc. so be prudent with what is hanging there. This includes a Hilti drill and bag of anchor hardware, but I have been known to have that hang there a time or two. Wouldn't recommend it in a water course, though.

    Experience levels being equal? I'm not going to defend what I hang on my harness, nor criticize what's on yours. My experience has given me reason to put what is there, there; and I trust that goes double for you. But labeling an adjustable tether (which is arms length, anything longer would be excessive and frivolous) as excessive and frivolous, while advocating a Clipster as less of a potential hazard....we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    One thing we can agree on, there are no trees or bushes inside caves (living, that is), everything else is pretty much homologous. If we don't agree here, either one or both of us need to spend some more time in the other's backyard.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
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  20. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Short story from this past weekend to illustrate the two sides of this discussion. There are real up/down, cost/benefit sides to the "stuff" hanging from your harness. Especially when on rope in moving water. Tom's point about stuff snagging there? Yes, I totally get it.

    During part of our training exercise we rigged a 80' waterfall - for practice. Perfect conditions for training; cool water with 90 degree air temp, no threat of hypothermia, CFS volume - acceptable.

    Video of the rappel


    The rappel was relatively straight forward, slick as expected and undercut, but nothing too difficult. Move quickly and safely through the crux (point where flow is in your face), steady descent, head down to assist breathing. Gravity being your friend - no problems.

    At the bottom, I did a change-over and started ascending (sorry, no video). Probably not something you'll ever need to do in the canyons. But this was practice time - hone skills, stretch limits under controlled conditions - with lots of help near by. Because breathing is labored when ascending (gravity is not your friend), even with the head down, breaths just aren't as satisfying at 100% humidity over a longer period of time. Tried to keep a steady pace, though.

    The closer I got to the crux, flow concentration got heavier. About 5 feet from the under-cut point, knowing I would need to move quickly; breaths are now even more in short supply with practically zero visibility. For the most part it is go by feel. It was at this point, when I was ready to break through the flow and over the lip, I attempted to lunge up and out (ascenders are against the rock at this point, hence up and out), I was immediately stopped. Tried again, same results. Something was holding me back. You can probably guess, it was the tether to my handled ascender. The loop was snagging on the undercut rock face.

    That was the cost.

    This was the benefit.

    With the handled ascender, passing over the edge (after freeing the snag) and through the crux, was quick and efficient. That is true whether it's a wet or dry edge. Without the handled ascender, the crux would have been much more challenging. This comes from experience, after ascending over many edges, the cost vs benefit balance.

    Your mileage and gear may vary - especially in the canyons.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
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