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NPS Report on Zion Incidents

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Ra, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. Ra

    Ra Guest

    Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues

    By Andrew Fitzgerald and Ray O'Neil, Park Rangers July 26, 2011



    The park's search and rescue team conducted four canyoneering rescues in three days, then took on a big wall rescue of two injured climbers:

    *July 16th – On the morning of July 16th, a 20-year-old man suffered a lower leg fracture after a short fall while descending into Mystery Canyon. When the injury occurred, he was over a quarter mile and 400 vertical feet below the canyon rim in a steep, heavily-vegetated gully. When rangers arrived on scene, he told them he'd be willing to assist with his evacuation, but that he could not bear any weight on the injured leg. Over the next six hours, he laboriously worked his way to the canyon rim with rangers' assistance while the park's contract helicopter staged at a nearby landing zone. His fortitude prevented the need for a complex technical rope rescue or a helicopter short haul. When he arrived on the East Mesa Trail, the helicopter evacuated him from the wilderness. While this incident was occurring, rangers were alerted to a 37-year-old male in the Narrows who was unable to stand or walk. The man, who was suffering from cumulative knee and lower leg injuries, had stopped hiking and sent others out to seek help. Though he had intended to complete the strenuous, 16-mile route as a day trip on July 15th, he spent an unplanned night in the Narrows. Members of the park SAR team conducted a six-hour litter carry of the patient via the park's SAR pack raft.

    *July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. Members of the group began their descent of Imlay on July 16th. This canyon has one of the park's more difficult canyoneering routes, with over 20 rappels, extremely cold water, and numerous potholes requiring specialized techniques for escape. As group members were completing a 10 foot rappel using a log jammed crosswise in the canyon as an anchor, the log anchor failed and the 20-year-old man who was on the rope suffered a possible lower leg fracture. The injured man was moved a short distance down canyon to a wide area and all spent the night there. In the morning, one party member stayed with the injured man while the remaining five canyoneers continued on the route, promising to send help once their trip was complete. Early in the evening of July 17th, they arrived at the last rappel 140 feet above the Zion Narrows. The first canyoneer to complete the free-hanging rappel then hurried to the Temple of Sinawava Trailhead two miles downstream to report the incident. Group members were using the carabineer block technique at the anchor, allowing party members to rappel on one strand of rope while using two strands of rope tied together to function as a pull cord. If used correctly, a carabineer and knot jam against the anchor prevents the rope from pulling through the anchor while the canyoneer is on rope. Connecting the rappel device to the correct side of the anchor is critical. The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor; when she put weight on it, she fell the entire distance into the shallow water below – a distance equivalent to 13 stories. Her life was likely saved by the friction or bunching of the rope whipping through the anchor, slowing her fall just enough at the last second. While a ranger at the trailhead was taking information concerning the initial lower leg fracture, a visitor rushed to the trailhead to report that a woman had fallen 140 feet. Rangers quickly organized a carryout via raft litter and evacuated the woman to the trailhead, arriving shortly after midnight. Her most serious injury was a shattered ankle. On the morning of July 18th, Grand Canyon National Park's contract helicopter and short-haul team evacuated the man with the initial lower leg fracture out of the center of Imlay Canyon. The use of short haul prevented the need for a long, difficult technical rope rescue. Charges concerning the group's wilderness permit violations are pending.

    *July 19th – Just after 11 p.m. on July 19th, flashing lights and shouts for help were seen and heard from halfway up the vertical cliff face below Angels Landing, prompting a shuttle bus driver to alert park rangers. Using a patrol vehicle PA system, spotlight and headlamp flashes, rangers were able to communicate with the climbers. They determined that there were two climbers on the Northeast Buttress and that at least one had fallen and suffered a head injury. Before calling for help, the climbers had attempted to retreat but did not have enough rope to clear a huge free hanging rappel. They'd also discovered that their single 70-meter rope had been badly damaged. Members of the park's technical rescue team rallied early the next morning at the top of Angels Landing for the rescue. The Zion helitack crew supported the team with recon flights and a sling load of ropes and equipment. Helicopter recon proved critical in establishing the appropriate fall line for the ensuing 1,300-foot lowering operation. The team used two high directionals to help keep the mainline free of obstacles. As ranger/paramedic Brandon Torres was lowered approximately 700 feet to the climbers, he carefully cleared debris to significantly reduce rock fall hazard. The climbers, brothers aged 34 and 31, were in stable condition and able to describe the events of the previous day. They'd gotten off route on the fifth or sixth pitch of the Northeast Buttress. Once off route, each had taken separate and substantial falls – one had sustained hand injuries and the other hit his head and lost consciousness for a short time. Torres connected the climbers to the rescue system and all three were lowered another 600 feet to the ground. The climbers were on the ground by 1:30 p.m. Ranger Therese Picard served as operations chief.
  2. Matt Smith

    Matt Smith Guest

    This is sad news. Worsening the sad news is the inevitability that increased rescues are likely to result in increased regulation.

  3. rich_rudow

    rich_rudow Guest

    No kidding Matt. The group on the 17th was comprised of some Phoenix locals that call themselves "new wave" canyoneers in internet trip reports. They seem to pride themselves in outing secret canyons, bragging about it on the internet and playing by their own rules. They neglect the impact their actions have on the community as a whole. Common canyon safety procedures would have prevented the accidents in Zion. I guess gravity still plays under the old school rules. I feel terrible for the newbies on the trip that got hurt. They generally depend on the more experienced people to use proper safety procedures. And Imlay isn't a good place for newbies anyway.

    I don't know these folks personally, but this is one of the trip leader's posts on the Hike Arizona site. It strikes me as a bit too cavalier for my comfort.

    http://hikearizona.com/photoset.php?ID=14333

    I've seen recent posts where the "new wave" crew were playing in Grand Canyon. It's been four long years of working with the Park Service rangers to get appropriate rule making underway to actually enable technical canyoneering in Grand Canyon. The backcountry plan is being updated with new elements for canyoneering now. The new plan allows technical canyoneering under a backpacking permit - which is easy to get - and allows pack rafts to travel down the Colorado river to hiking exits. Of course these rules assume that canyoneers use good judgment about their skills while hiking into Grand Canyon, descending slots, rafting the river, and hiking out. All we need is a group like this to screw up in Grand Canyon to ruin it for everyone.

    Rich







    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Matt Smith" <matts@...> wrote:
    This is sad news. Worsening the sad news is the inevitability that increased rescues are likely to result in increased regulation.
    >
  4. phil

    phil Guest

    Photos looked beautiful but the trip report can definitely be called cavalier. Saw some of the SAR folks after one of the rescues during a BBQ in Cedar. They looked tired but didn't vocalize anything too bitter about the experience or groups.

    The internet can become its own WMD when used with proper intent. Brings a whole new level to the beta or not beta issue. I always had my thoughts but never intended to be malicious with them.

    "New Wave"....makes me laugh. So does the comment about there being too much drama in such a small community. Gotta love irony.

    No matter the disagreements in philosophy I never like to hear about injuries in the backcountry. Hoping we never get past the threshold that requires a reaction or solution from the NPS.

    Phillip

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:
    No kidding Matt. The group on the 17th was comprised of some Phoenix locals that call themselves "new wave" canyoneers in internet trip reports. They seem to pride themselves in outing secret canyons, bragging about it on the internet and playing by their own rules. They neglect the impact their actions have on the community as a whole. Common canyon safety procedures would have prevented the accidents in Zion. I guess gravity still plays under the old school rules. I feel terrible for the newbies on the trip that got hurt. They generally depend on the more experienced people to use proper safety procedures. And Imlay isn't a good place for newbies anyway.
    I don't know these folks personally, but this is one of the trip leader's posts on the Hike Arizona site. It strikes me as a bit too cavalier for my comfort.
    http://hikearizona.com/photoset.php?ID=14333
    > I've seen recent posts where the "new wave" crew were playing in Grand Canyon. It's been four long years of working with the Park Service rangers to get appropriate rule making underway to actually enable technical canyoneering in Grand Canyon. The backcountry plan is being updated with new elements for canyoneering now. The new plan allows technical canyoneering under a backpacking permit - which is easy to get - and allows pack rafts to travel down the Colorado river to hiking exits. Of course these rules assume that canyoneers use good judgment about their skills while hiking into Grand Canyon, descending slots, rafting the river, and hiking out. All we need is a group like this to screw up in Grand Canyon to ruin it for everyone.
    > Rich



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Matt Smith" <matts@> wrote:

    This is sad news. Worsening the sad news is the inevitability that increased rescues are likely to result in increased regulation.


    >
  5. cntsavery

    cntsavery Guest

    Kudos to Rudow!

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:
    No kidding Matt. The group on the 17th was comprised of some Phoenix locals that call themselves "new wave" canyoneers in internet trip reports. They seem to pride themselves in outing secret canyons, bragging about it on the internet and playing by their own rules. They neglect the impact their actions have on the community as a whole. Common canyon safety procedures would have prevented the accidents in Zion. I guess gravity still plays under the old school rules. I feel terrible for the newbies on the trip that got hurt. They generally depend on the more experienced people to use proper safety procedures. And Imlay isn't a good place for newbies anyway.
    I don't know these folks personally, but this is one of the trip leader's posts on the Hike Arizona site. It strikes me as a bit too cavalier for my comfort.
    http://hikearizona.com/photoset.php?ID=14333
    > I've seen recent posts where the "new wave" crew were playing in Grand Canyon. It's been four long years of working with the Park Service rangers to get appropriate rule making underway to actually enable technical canyoneering in Grand Canyon. The backcountry plan is being updated with new elements for canyoneering now. The new plan allows technical canyoneering under a backpacking permit - which is easy to get - and allows pack rafts to travel down the Colorado river to hiking exits. Of course these rules assume that canyoneers use good judgment about their skills while hiking into Grand Canyon, descending slots, rafting the river, and hiking out. All we need is a group like this to screw up in Grand Canyon to ruin it for everyone.
    > Rich



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Matt Smith" <matts@> wrote:

    This is sad news. Worsening the sad news is the inevitability that increased rescues are likely to result in increased regulation.


    >
  6. Vaporman

    Vaporman Guest

    Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any issues with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much the same techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ triplogs all you want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips with little issues...

    If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book or your friends ost the pictures on FB?

    As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... Now we get trash talked and slandered on Bogley and now on here? How about a few more canyoneers come kick us in the ribs while we're down and rub our faces in the dirt?!?

    Happy canyoneering! =)

    Brian

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:
    No kidding Matt. The group on the 17th was comprised of some Phoenix locals that call themselves "new wave" canyoneers in internet trip reports. They seem to pride themselves in outing secret canyons, bragging about it on the internet and playing by their own rules. They neglect the impact their actions have on the community as a whole. Common canyon safety procedures would have prevented the accidents in Zion. I guess gravity still plays under the old school rules. I feel terrible for the newbies on the trip that got hurt. They generally depend on the more experienced people to use proper safety procedures. And Imlay isn't a good place for newbies anyway.
    I don't know these folks personally, but this is one of the trip leader's posts on the Hike Arizona site. It strikes me as a bit too cavalier for my comfort.
    http://hikearizona.com/photoset.php?ID=14333
    > I've seen recent posts where the "new wave" crew were playing in Grand Canyon. It's been four long years of working with the Park Service rangers to get appropriate rule making underway to actually enable technical canyoneering in Grand Canyon. The backcountry plan is being updated with new elements for canyoneering now. The new plan allows technical canyoneering under a backpacking permit - which is easy to get - and allows pack rafts to travel down the Colorado river to hiking exits. Of course these rules assume that canyoneers use good judgment about their skills while hiking into Grand Canyon, descending slots, rafting the river, and hiking out. All we need is a group like this to screw up in Grand Canyon to ruin it for everyone.
    > Rich



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Matt Smith" <matts@> wrote:

    This is sad news. Worsening the sad news is the inevitability that increased rescues are likely to result in increased regulation.


    >
  7. Randy Smith

    Randy Smith Guest

    Brian,

    Can you tell us how serious the injuries are and how the recovering is coming? I can hardly imagine how bad the last fall must have been.

    Randy

    On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Vaporman vapormanb@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > **
    > Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for > blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any issues > with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much the same > techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ triplogs all you > want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips with little issues...
    If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that > Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book > or your friends ost the pictures on FB?
    As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... Now we get trash > talked and slandered on Bogley and now on here? How about a few more > canyoneers come kick us in the ribs while we're down and rub our faces in > the dirt?!?
    Happy canyoneering! =)
    Brian
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rich_rudow" <rich_rudow@...> wrote:

    No kidding Matt. The group on the 17th was comprised of some Phoenix > locals that call themselves "new wave" canyoneers in internet trip reports. > They seem to pride themselves in outing secret canyons, bragging about it on > the internet and playing by their own rules. They neglect the impact their > actions have on the community as a whole. Common canyon safety procedures > would have prevented the accidents in Zion. I guess gravity still plays > under the old school rules. I feel terrible for the newbies on the trip that > got hurt. They generally depend on the more experienced people to use proper > safety procedures. And Imlay isn't a good place for newbies anyway.

    I don't know these folks personally, but this is one of the trip leader's > posts on the Hike Arizona site. It strikes me as a bit too cavalier for my > comfort.

    http://hikearizona.com/photoset.php?ID=14333

    > I've seen recent posts where the "new wave" crew were playing in Grand > Canyon. It's been four long years of working with the Park Service rangers > to get appropriate rule making underway to actually enable technical > canyoneering in Grand Canyon. The backcountry plan is being updated with new > elements for canyoneering now. The new plan allows technical canyoneering > under a backpacking permit - which is easy to get - and allows pack rafts to > travel down the Colorado river to hiking exits. Of course these rules assume > that canyoneers use good judgment about their skills while hiking into Grand > Canyon, descending slots, rafting the river, and hiking out. All we need is > a group like this to screw up in Grand Canyon to ruin it for everyone.


    Rich







    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Matt Smith" <matts@> wrote:


    This is sad news. Worsening the sad news is the inevitability that > increased rescues are likely to result in increased regulation.
  8. kuenn_k2

    kuenn_k2 Guest

    Along this same vein…

    I was in ZNP last week with a group of caver friends doing some canyons for a couple of days (our first trip there, which was amazing)...was waiting in line at the backcountry desk behind a family of four trying to decide if they wanted to take 4 of the last 5 remaining permits for Subway that day (which I never dreamed would be available). I'm chanting under my breath, no, no, no mainly because I wanted them but partly because they didn't exactly personify the canyoneering profile... but they took them.

    The next day we traveled to wildcat trailhead and then to the exit parking lot (clearly to wallow in self-pity). While talking with the ranger on duty we learned that a group of four had unexpectedly spent the night in the slot when they were unable to complete the route before darkness fell. From what I understood it was a self-rescue but rangers did hike in to locate them.

    I speculated that it was the same four...don't know for sure... but I'm still ticked for not being able to cash in on it.



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Ra" <tamarashuck@...> wrote:
    > Rangers Conduct Multiple Technical Rescues
    By Andrew Fitzgerald and Ray O'Neil, Park Rangers > July 26, 2011

    > The park's search and rescue team conducted four canyoneering rescues in three days, then took on a big wall rescue of two injured climbers:
    *July 16th – On the morning of July 16th, a 20-year-old man suffered a lower leg fracture after a short fall while descending into Mystery Canyon. When the injury occurred, he was over a quarter mile and 400 vertical feet below the canyon rim in a steep, heavily-vegetated gully. When rangers arrived on scene, he told them he'd be willing to assist with his evacuation, but that he could not bear any weight on the injured leg. Over the next six hours, he laboriously worked his way to the canyon rim with rangers' assistance while the park's contract helicopter staged at a nearby landing zone. His fortitude prevented the need for a complex technical rope rescue or a helicopter short haul. When he arrived on the East Mesa Trail, the helicopter evacuated him from the wilderness. While this incident was occurring, rangers were alerted to a 37-year-old male in the Narrows who was unable to stand or walk. The man, who was suffering from cumulative knee and lower leg injuries, had stopped hiking and sent others out to seek help. Though he had intended to complete the strenuous, 16-mile route as a day trip on July 15th, he spent an unplanned night in the Narrows. Members of the park SAR team conducted a six-hour litter carry of the patient via the park's SAR pack raft.
    *July 17th – A group of seven canyoneers in Imlay Canyon requested help for two people who had taken separate falls. Members of the group began their descent of Imlay on July 16th. This canyon has one of the park's more difficult canyoneering routes, with over 20 rappels, extremely cold water, and numerous potholes requiring specialized techniques for escape. As group members were completing a 10 foot rappel using a log jammed crosswise in the canyon as an anchor, the log anchor failed and the 20-year-old man who was on the rope suffered a possible lower leg fracture. The injured man was moved a short distance down canyon to a wide area and all spent the night there. In the morning, one party member stayed with the injured man while the remaining five canyoneers continued on the route, promising to send help once their trip was complete. Early in the evening of July 17th, they arrived at the last rappel 140 feet above the Zion Narrows. The first canyoneer to complete the free-hanging rappel then hurried to the Temple of Sinawava Trailhead two miles downstream to report the incident. Group members were using the carabineer block technique at the anchor, allowing party members to rappel on one strand of rope while using two strands of rope tied together to function as a pull cord. If used correctly, a carabineer and knot jam against the anchor prevents the rope from pulling through the anchor while the canyoneer is on rope. Connecting the rappel device to the correct side of the anchor is critical. The second-to-last party member to descend the last rappel attached her device on the wrong side of the anchor; when she put weight on it, she fell the entire distance into the shallow water below – a distance equivalent to 13 stories. Her life was likely saved by the friction or bunching of the rope whipping through the anchor, slowing her fall just enough at the last second. While a ranger at the trailhead was taking information concerning the initial lower leg fracture, a visitor rushed to the trailhead to report that a woman had fallen 140 feet. Rangers quickly organized a carryout via raft litter and evacuated the woman to the trailhead, arriving shortly after midnight. Her most serious injury was a shattered ankle. On the morning of July 18th, Grand Canyon National Park's contract helicopter and short-haul team evacuated the man with the initial lower leg fracture out of the center of Imlay Canyon. The use of short haul prevented the need for a long, difficult technical rope rescue. Charges concerning the group's wilderness permit violations are pending.
    *July 19th – Just after 11 p.m. on July 19th, flashing lights and shouts for help were seen and heard from halfway up the vertical cliff face below Angels Landing, prompting a shuttle bus driver to alert park rangers. Using a patrol vehicle PA system, spotlight and headlamp flashes, rangers were able to communicate with the climbers. They determined that there were two climbers on the Northeast Buttress and that at least one had fallen and suffered a head injury. Before calling for help, the climbers had attempted to retreat but did not have enough rope to clear a huge free hanging rappel. They'd also discovered that their single 70-meter rope had been badly damaged. Members of the park's technical rescue team rallied early the next morning at the top of Angels Landing for the rescue. The Zion helitack crew supported the team with recon flights and a sling load of ropes and equipment. Helicopter recon proved critical in establishing the appropriate fall line for the ensuing 1,300-foot lowering operation. The team used two high directionals to help keep the mainline free of obstacles. As ranger/paramedic Brandon Torres was lowered approximately 700 feet to the climbers, he carefully cleared debris to significantly reduce rock fall hazard. The climbers, brothers aged 34 and 31, were in stable condition and able to describe the events of the previous day. They'd gotten off route on the fifth or sixth pitch of the Northeast Buttress. Once off route, each had taken separate and substantial falls – one had sustained hand injuries and the other hit his head and lost consciousness for a short time. Torres connected the climbers to the rescue system and all three were lowered another 600 feet to the ground. The climbers were on the ground by 1:30 p.m. Ranger Therese Picard served as operations chief. >
  9. tj_wetherell

    tj_wetherell Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@...> wrote:

    > If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book or your friends ost the pictures on FB?

    I think the point was that not following "the rules" will get technical canyon descents (more) heavily restricted or banned from GCNP. Your rescue utilized GCNP's helicopter, so they are aware of your ill-fated trip, and the investigation of the permit violation.

    Since the management plan is under development it is a very sensitive time, and negative exposure will hurt us all....

    > As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... I hope the recoveries are fast and uncomplicated.

    -tom(w)
  10. flutedwalls

    flutedwalls Guest

    Sir

    I don't know you or any in your group. My first and paramount statement and concern though - after learing of "1" & then "2" episodes in Imlay - was and is re the health and welfare of the participants.

    Distinguish any commentary relating to "skill,technique" and safe, practiced canyon procedures in cold water canyons, from concern re the much bigger issue which is the health(healing)and vitality of the parties involved.

    You may sense some are "kicking". Don't you know though that others, regardless of what did or didn't happen in the canyon, wish the best for you and your group.

    This recent event is NOT isolated. There have been a flurry of other "biner block" debacles in Zion and elsewhere. Serious injury and a death occured semi-recently in Pine Ck. and Heaps. Those new to the sport/endeavor, should be able to learn from these accidents.

    Some of us have been doing "this" for more than a decade. Still, two years ago, in a water canyon, a group just ahead of us, set up a biner block (with both strands hanging) and a youngster got on the "wrong line" and flew 20 ft.(or so) into a pool of water. I got there right as he "flew". Miraculously, he landed in deep water, and aside from being seriously "shook up" and shocked he was OK. The event though was a BIG reminder to me. Had it been solid ground, the wrong line rapper, likely would have expired?

    And then the issue/concern re ramped up SAR in Zion and elsewhere and the resulting potential impact on permits, access and opportunity to visit canyons. I think it's fair that many of these issues, can and should be talked about...without attacking or launching a first, second and third strike on the participants.

    Cold water canyons; I've seen physically strong rocket scientists, physicians (even myself) wither mentally (at times) when we are depleted,fatigued and cold. The synergy of multiple parties paying attention to each other at rap stations(and elsewhere)is a necessity,(as is practice, simplicity and habit)otherwise folk (brilliant as they may be)are at times, rolling the dice.

    Best to you sir, and to your group, and may the injured heal and be made whole. (Into something better than a tumbling Humpty Dumpty that falls apart)

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@...> wrote:
    Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any issues with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much the same techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ triplogs all you want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips with little issues...
    If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book or your friends ost the pictures on FB?
    As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... Now we get trash talked and slandered on Bogley and now on here? How about a few more canyoneers come kick us in the ribs while we're down and rub our faces in the dirt?!?
    Happy canyoneering! =)
    Brian >
  11. desertres

    desertres Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@...> wrote:
    Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for >blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any >issues with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much >the same techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ >triplogs all you want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips >with .little issues...

    I would recommend that you write a trip report here on it(Imlay). Contribute to the long term result of this incident and not worry about the short term back and forth or how it will play out for you.
  12. Vaporman

    Vaporman Guest

    I should backtrack and say thanks for all the positive responses and questions that have come regarding our trip and accidents. That original truncated report on Bogley of the accidents was copied from my facebook postings... I've been lurking on here and Bogley since the incident and haven't had any issue with most of what was said. But I guess it only takes a few negative comments to feel like we're being picked on...

    I'm a few weeks behind on HAZ, still need to post for Insomnia, X-Pine, and still thinking about how much I'll post for Imlay... I can post a link from HAZ on what I decided to put on there. =)

    Thankfully those injured are doing well physically from what I've heard. Just a few busted right lower legs. We're all recovering psychologically from the incident, some obviously much more than others...

    Brian

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "flutedwalls" <flutedwalls@...> wrote:
    Sir
    I don't know you or any in your group. My first and paramount statement and concern though - after learing of "1" & then "2" episodes in Imlay - was and is re the health and welfare of the participants.
    Distinguish any commentary relating to "skill,technique" and safe, practiced canyon procedures in cold water canyons, from concern re the much bigger issue which is the health(healing)and vitality of the parties involved.
    You may sense some are "kicking". Don't you know though that others, regardless of what did or didn't happen in the canyon, wish the best for you and your group.
    This recent event is NOT isolated. There have been a flurry of other "biner block" debacles in Zion and elsewhere. Serious injury and a death occured semi-recently in Pine Ck. and Heaps. Those new to the sport/endeavor, should be able to learn from these accidents.
    Some of us have been doing "this" for more than a decade. Still, two years ago, in a water canyon, a group just ahead of us, set up a biner block (with both strands hanging) and a youngster got on the "wrong line" and flew 20 ft.(or so) into a pool of water. I got there right as he "flew". Miraculously, he landed in deep water, and aside from being seriously "shook up" and shocked he was OK. The event though was a BIG reminder to me. Had it been solid ground, the wrong line rapper, likely would have expired?
    And then the issue/concern re ramped up SAR in Zion and elsewhere and the resulting potential impact on permits, access and opportunity to visit canyons. I think it's fair that many of these issues, can and should be talked about...without attacking or launching a first, second and third strike on the participants.
    Cold water canyons; I've seen physically strong rocket scientists, physicians (even myself) wither mentally (at times) when we are depleted,fatigued and cold. The synergy of multiple parties paying attention to each other at rap stations(and elsewhere)is a necessity,(as is practice, simplicity and habit)otherwise folk (brilliant as they may be)are at times, rolling the dice.
    Best to you sir, and to your group, and may the injured heal and be made whole. (Into something better than a tumbling Humpty Dumpty that falls apart)
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@> wrote:

    Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any issues with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much the same techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ triplogs all you want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips with little issues...

    If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book or your friends ost the pictures on FB?

    As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... Now we get trash talked and slandered on Bogley and now on here? How about a few more canyoneers come kick us in the ribs while we're down and rub our faces in the dirt?!?

    Happy canyoneering! =)

    Brian
    >
  13. cntsavery

    cntsavery Guest

    Brian: If you read anything like "they deserved what they got" in my earlier post, I apologize; I did not mean to convey anything along those lines. Things happen, as they say. But you've left some early impressions with me that are not positive (I may be in the same position with you). That said, my impressions have yet to "set," (likewise, I hope). In my opinion, you deserve criticism for the cavalier nature of your posts on Hike Arizona--you seem to take glee in posting about canyons that, you have no right to reveal unless you found them yourself. [This could go on a long time, but I am of the opinion that if the discoverers of a canyon provide beta with the proviso that it be kept confidential, that request should be honored, even if whatever information you obtain is technically hearsay. Maybe that could be called the "caving" ethic. I assume your familiarity with the story of the discovery of Kartchner Caverns here in Arizona. That said, some of favorite canyoneering partners are convicted publishers]. Second, it appears that you either did not know about, or chose to ignore, the ZNP permit system. Finally, you seem to have pretty thin skin for someone whose posts have elements of "devil may care" in them. I would hardly characterize the comments thus far as lupine and slanderous, and I have a hard time believing that you were really wishing "Happy Canyoneering" to all of us.

    You get to decide whether you want to defend those decisions, apologize for them, or continue to lurk. Your call. At some time, given the nature of this sport, you will cross paths with almost everyone on this group, and we will all bring our respective impressions with us. Cordially, Chris Avery.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@...> wrote:
    I should backtrack and say thanks for all the positive responses and questions that have come regarding our trip and accidents. That original truncated report on Bogley of the accidents was copied from my facebook postings... I've been lurking on here and Bogley since the incident and haven't had any issue with most of what was said. But I guess it only takes a few negative comments to feel like we're being picked on...
    I'm a few weeks behind on HAZ, still need to post for Insomnia, X-Pine, and still thinking about how much I'll post for Imlay... I can post a link from HAZ on what I decided to put on there. =)
    Thankfully those injured are doing well physically from what I've heard. Just a few busted right lower legs. We're all recovering psychologically from the incident, some obviously much more than others...
    Brian
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "flutedwalls" <flutedwalls@> wrote:

    Sir

    I don't know you or any in your group. My first and paramount statement and concern though - after learing of "1" & then "2" episodes in Imlay - was and is re the health and welfare of the participants.

    Distinguish any commentary relating to "skill,technique" and safe, practiced canyon procedures in cold water canyons, from concern re the much bigger issue which is the health(healing)and vitality of the parties involved.

    You may sense some are "kicking". Don't you know though that others, regardless of what did or didn't happen in the canyon, wish the best for you and your group.

    This recent event is NOT isolated. There have been a flurry of other "biner block" debacles in Zion and elsewhere. Serious injury and a death occured semi-recently in Pine Ck. and Heaps. Those new to the sport/endeavor, should be able to learn from these accidents.

    Some of us have been doing "this" for more than a decade. Still, two years ago, in a water canyon, a group just ahead of us, set up a biner block (with both strands hanging) and a youngster got on the "wrong line" and flew 20 ft.(or so) into a pool of water. I got there right as he "flew". Miraculously, he landed in deep water, and aside from being seriously "shook up" and shocked he was OK. The event though was a BIG reminder to me. Had it been solid ground, the wrong line rapper, likely would have expired?

    And then the issue/concern re ramped up SAR in Zion and elsewhere and the resulting potential impact on permits, access and opportunity to visit canyons. I think it's fair that many of these issues, can and should be talked about...without attacking or launching a first, second and third strike on the participants.

    Cold water canyons; I've seen physically strong rocket scientists, physicians (even myself) wither mentally (at times) when we are depleted,fatigued and cold. The synergy of multiple parties paying attention to each other at rap stations(and elsewhere)is a necessity,(as is practice, simplicity and habit)otherwise folk (brilliant as they may be)are at times, rolling the dice.

    Best to you sir, and to your group, and may the injured heal and be made whole. (Into something better than a tumbling Humpty Dumpty that falls apart)

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@> wrote:


    Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any issues with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much the same techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ triplogs all you want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips with little issues...


    If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book or your friends ost the pictures on FB?


    As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... Now we get trash talked and slandered on Bogley and now on here? How about a few more canyoneers come kick us in the ribs while we're down and rub our faces in the dirt?!?


    Happy canyoneering! =)


    Brian
  14. Vaporman

    Vaporman Guest

    The 'secret canyon' ordeal is just a matter of perspective and/or opinion... I had almost forgotten that I jokingly referred to us newer canyoneers as 'new wavers', obviously some people are reading my triplogs fairly closely. =p But most of the new wavers I canyoneer with are in the same boat as me. We started out canyoneering in the last 3-5 years buying books by Todd Martin, Tom Jones, Tyler Williams, and Kelsey loaded with hundreds and hundreds of canyons to keep us busy for a lifetime or two. So I found it odd, intriguing, and even comical when I found out there exists 'secret canyons' with rules and guidelines on how you share the beta. I hesitated on posting the canyons on HAZ, but I decided that canyons like Illusions or Shake Tree or Insomnia or Barnhardt are no different than the canyons already in Todd's book which were once secrets also in the not too distant past. Who gets to decided which canyons are secret and which are publishable? What if I have no clue who the original discoverer is and how to contact him? It's not like I'm making any money from HAZ for posting them. My triplogs may come off as cavalier & light hearted but I take canyoneering quite seriously and I'm very humbled by the challenging & amAZingly beautiful canyons throughout the southwest and I'm grateful for every trip I'm able to go on...

    You're right, most of the Imlay discussions have been on Bogley and only a few of the posters have gotten negative, but I'm not a member of Bogley and these groups are essentially the same people & community. Today was the first time I responded to anything publicly and I was more or less responding to the community as a whole... The NPS report is pretty much word for word what we told them that night. Any tell-all recounting will not reveal any more hidden truths or secrets... I'm fairly thick skinned, but since I was one of the group leaders I felt a need to defend our groups actions. Accidents, mistakes, or slips can happen to the elites and well as the nooBs. Anchors that you thought we fairly solid left by previous groups obviously still have the potential to blow... I think you guys rappelling off a pile of sand is flipping nutz, especially after watching my buddy come crashing down from a blown anchor. After 30-40 rappels and in&out of cold water on the 2nd day with little sleep, mistakes can be made by even the smartest among us. In hindsight, we should have locked off the pullside even though it was still in a bag on top off to the side. But my various canyon buddies and I have rappelled off of hundreds and hundreds of biner & knock blocks without issues and only occasionally locking off the pullside... But we now feel that locking off the pullside should become standard practice from now on; the extra time it takes is worth every second. We had plenty of permits, the issue was in being over the limit of 6 with our combined group of 7. We know we made a mistake by disobeying it; we admitted it to the main SAR guy and we'll have to suffer the consequences of their decision...

    And yea I was a little sarcastic by saying 'Happy Canyoneering' but I really do wish everyone happy canyoneering. I'm thankful for all the efforts others have done in pioneering this sport before I even knew it existed. Think what you want about our group or our actions or the accidents but I still wish everyone in the community the best and I'm thankful we have such excellent SAR on hand at Zion to respond to such accidents. Thankfully the sustained injuries were much less than what they could have been. FWIW, I wouldn't wish a double SAR rescue in Imlay Canyon on my worst enemy...

    On a lighter note, those helicopter guys from GCNP really have no idea what canyoneering is... After they picked up our guy with a broken ankle, they asked the gal we left behind to tend him if she could hike herself out to the trail. o_O They had no clue she was in the middle of one of the most challenging technical canyons in the region with not a single rope. Someone should do them a favor and send them a copy of Todd's next book. =p

    Brian

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "cntsavery" <avery.christopher@...> wrote:
    Brian: If you read anything like "they deserved what they got" in my earlier post, I apologize; I did not mean to convey anything along those lines. Things happen, as they say. But you've left some early impressions with me that are not positive (I may be in the same position with you). That said, my impressions have yet to "set," (likewise, I hope). In my opinion, you deserve criticism for the cavalier nature of your posts on Hike Arizona--you seem to take glee in posting about canyons that, you have no right to reveal unless you found them yourself. [This could go on a long time, but I am of the opinion that if the discoverers of a canyon provide beta with the proviso that it be kept confidential, that request should be honored, even if whatever information you obtain is technically hearsay. Maybe that could be called the "caving" ethic. I assume your familiarity with the story of the discovery of Kartchner Caverns here in Arizona. That said, some of favorite canyoneering partners are convicted publishers]. Second, it appears that you either did not know about, or chose to ignore, the ZNP permit system. Finally, you seem to have pretty thin skin for someone whose posts have elements of "devil may care" in them. I would hardly characterize the comments thus far as lupine and slanderous, and I have a hard time believing that you were really wishing "Happy Canyoneering" to all of us.
    You get to decide whether you want to defend those decisions, apologize for them, or continue to lurk. Your call. At some time, given the nature of this sport, you will cross paths with almost everyone on this group, and we will all bring our respective impressions with us. Cordially, Chris Avery.
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@> wrote:

    I should backtrack and say thanks for all the positive responses and questions that have come regarding our trip and accidents. That original truncated report on Bogley of the accidents was copied from my facebook postings... I've been lurking on here and Bogley since the incident and haven't had any issue with most of what was said. But I guess it only takes a few negative comments to feel like we're being picked on...

    I'm a few weeks behind on HAZ, still need to post for Insomnia, X-Pine, and still thinking about how much I'll post for Imlay... I can post a link from HAZ on what I decided to put on there. =)

    Thankfully those injured are doing well physically from what I've heard. Just a few busted right lower legs. We're all recovering psychologically from the incident, some obviously much more than others...

    Brian

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "flutedwalls" <flutedwalls@> wrote:


    Sir


    I don't know you or any in your group. My first and paramount statement and concern though - after learing of "1" & then "2" episodes in Imlay - was and is re the health and welfare of the participants.


    Distinguish any commentary relating to "skill,technique" and safe, practiced canyon procedures in cold water canyons, from concern re the much bigger issue which is the health(healing)and vitality of the parties involved.


    You may sense some are "kicking". Don't you know though that others, regardless of what did or didn't happen in the canyon, wish the best for you and your group.


    This recent event is NOT isolated. There have been a flurry of other "biner block" debacles in Zion and elsewhere. Serious injury and a death occured semi-recently in Pine Ck. and Heaps. Those new to the sport/endeavor, should be able to learn from these accidents.


    Some of us have been doing "this" for more than a decade. Still, two years ago, in a water canyon, a group just ahead of us, set up a biner block (with both strands hanging) and a youngster got on the "wrong line" and flew 20 ft.(or so) into a pool of water. I got there right as he "flew". Miraculously, he landed in deep water, and aside from being seriously "shook up" and shocked he was OK. The event though was a BIG reminder to me. Had it been solid ground, the wrong line rapper, likely would have expired?


    And then the issue/concern re ramped up SAR in Zion and elsewhere and the resulting potential impact on permits, access and opportunity to visit canyons. I think it's fair that many of these issues, can and should be talked about...without attacking or launching a first, second and third strike on the participants.


    Cold water canyons; I've seen physically strong rocket scientists, physicians (even myself) wither mentally (at times) when we are depleted,fatigued and cold. The synergy of multiple parties paying attention to each other at rap stations(and elsewhere)is a necessity,(as is practice, simplicity and habit)otherwise folk (brilliant as they may be)are at times, rolling the dice.


    Best to you sir, and to your group, and may the injured heal and be made whole. (Into something better than a tumbling Humpty Dumpty that falls apart)


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Vaporman" <vapormanb@> wrote:



    Guess it only take only bad trip for all the wolves to come out for blood... I've been canyoneering for three years solid now without any issues with people of various degrees of experience using pretty much the same techniques that the rest of you are using. Go thru my HAZ triplogs all you want; you'll find loads of great canyon trips with little issues...



    If you don't want me canyoneering in the grand canyon then why have that Grand Canyon presentation and invite all of us? Why release a technical book or your friends ost the pictures on FB?



    As if we're not going thru enough already as it is... Now we get trash talked and slandered on Bogley and now on here? How about a few more canyoneers come kick us in the ribs while we're down and rub our faces in the dirt?!?



    Happy canyoneering! =)



    Brian
  15. cntsavery

    cntsavery Guest

    Brian: You posted, "So I found it odd, intriguing, and even comical when I found out there exists 'secret canyons' with rules and guidelines on how you share the beta."

    You should give "secret keepers" more credit for making informed judgments about what to disclose and what to keep. Let's borrow a caving analogy. When Randy Tufts found Kartchner Caverns, he knew two things, he knew that he had found a once-in-lifetime gem--an undiscovered wet cave, with delicate formations, and he knew that it was so fragile that it would not withstand any reckless visitors. He kept it secret for as long as he could. There is a now-closed canyon in Zion that has exquisite, but slippery, moss formations in the rappel lines, some of which are a little tricky on the start. I haven't seen many beginning canyoneers who could descend that canyon without smearing off the moss, kind of like a cryptogamic soil issue. An experienced and careful rappeller is far less likely leave muddy, smeared out footprints down the line and a pile of moss at the bottom. No way to know whether the purchaser of the guidebook falls into the former or latter category. Even if I were a guidebook author, I would not publish a canyon like that, if I thought I were the initial discover. I would only reveal its location to people who were, in my judgment, competent enough to traverse it without ruining it, and would ask them to do the same. Moreover, I would not find it "odd, intriguing, and even comical" that another person had done the same.

    One other point: It is a mistake to assume that this forum and Bogley are interchangeable just because they are "essentially the same people & community." For better or worse, this site generally reflects the spirit and ethic of its moderators, as imbued through the thousands of posts from hundreds of contributors. So, it has its own presence, if you will. I have a great deal of respect for Tom and Ram and the other moderators here, and you may come to appreciate this site's unique qualities going forward.

    This sport is a great and grand privilege, but (to borrow a New Testament analogy) where much is given, much is required--in terms of ethics, attitude, respect and care. It's not wakeboarding (which, I'm sure, deserves its own respect and care, but which is not practiced in quite as fragile an environment). I wish you had thought about these issues, maybe even talked about them with some of the wise, experienced hands out there, before you made your decisions. All of us can benefit from their wisdom, and vice versa.
  16. vapormanb

    vapormanb Guest

    Very valid points! I also do enjoy this forum over Bogley and we have Tom and Ram to thank for that. The moss issue is something I've only recently come to appreciate. When i started out in popular canyons, most of the moss in the rappel line was knocked off long ago. As i've gotten better in preserving the moss while on rappel, I cringe and yell at my canyon buddies as they smear and break off moss in the lesser visited canyons... =\

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "cntsavery" <avery.christopher@...> wrote:
    Brian: You posted, "So I found it odd, intriguing, and even comical when I found out there exists 'secret canyons' with rules and guidelines on how you share the beta."
    You should give "secret keepers" more credit for making informed judgments about what to disclose and what to keep. Let's borrow a caving analogy. When Randy Tufts found Kartchner Caverns, he knew two things, he knew that he had found a once-in-lifetime gem--an undiscovered wet cave, with delicate formations, and he knew that it was so fragile that it would not withstand any reckless visitors. He kept it secret for as long as he could. There is a now-closed canyon in Zion that has exquisite, but slippery, moss formations in the rappel lines, some of which are a little tricky on the start. I haven't seen many beginning canyoneers who could descend that canyon without smearing off the moss, kind of like a cryptogamic soil issue. An experienced and careful rappeller is far less likely leave muddy, smeared out footprints down the line and a pile of moss at the bottom. No way to know whether the purchaser of the guidebook falls into the former or latter category. Even if I were a guidebook author, I would not publish a canyon like that, if I thought I were the initial discover. I would only reveal its location to people who were, in my judgment, competent enough to traverse it without ruining it, and would ask them to do the same. Moreover, I would not find it "odd, intriguing, and even comical" that another person had done the same.
    One other point: It is a mistake to assume that this forum and Bogley are interchangeable just because they are "essentially the same people & community." For better or worse, this site generally reflects the spirit and ethic of its moderators, as imbued through the thousands of posts from hundreds of contributors. So, it has its own presence, if you will. I have a great deal of respect for Tom and Ram and the other moderators here, and you may come to appreciate this site's unique qualities going forward.
    This sport is a great and grand privilege, but (to borrow a New Testament analogy) where much is given, much is required--in terms of ethics, attitude, respect and care. It's not wakeboarding (which, I'm sure, deserves its own respect and care, but which is not practiced in quite as fragile an environment). I wish you had thought about these issues, maybe even talked about them with some of the wise, experienced hands out there, before you made your decisions. All of us can benefit from their wisdom, and vice versa. >
  17. bshwakr09

    bshwakr09 Guest

    Brian,

    I like to maintain a responsible approach when publicizing 'quiet canyons'. When we told friends about Birch Hollow, we had no idea how popular it would become. I don't know what I would do different but I know that I am much more thoughtful today(mostly for my own peace of mind). I have not once considered a hierarchy or even a club of individuals who deserve to enter a canyon. I do however judge whether or not someone deserves to be in a canyon based on their competency; I don't want to be responsible for a headline in the morning report. In many cases, I would have no problems entering the canyon as a responsible 'leader' of those individuals so that they can experience what very few others have seen.

    Kip

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "vapormanb" <vapormanb@...> wrote:
    Very valid points! I also do enjoy this forum over Bogley and we have Tom and Ram to thank for that. The moss issue is something I've only recently come to appreciate. When i started out in popular canyons, most of the moss in the rappel line was knocked off long ago. As i've gotten better in preserving the moss while on rappel, I cringe and yell at my canyon buddies as they smear and break off moss in the lesser visited canyons... =
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "cntsavery" <avery.christopher@> wrote:

    Brian: You posted, "So I found it odd, intriguing, and even comical when I found out there exists 'secret canyons' with rules and guidelines on how you share the beta."

    You should give "secret keepers" more credit for making informed judgments about what to disclose and what to keep. Let's borrow a caving analogy. When Randy Tufts found Kartchner Caverns, he knew two things, he knew that he had found a once-in-lifetime gem--an undiscovered wet cave, with delicate formations, and he knew that it was so fragile that it would not withstand any reckless visitors. He kept it secret for as long as he could. There is a now-closed canyon in Zion that has exquisite, but slippery, moss formations in the rappel lines, some of which are a little tricky on the start. I haven't seen many beginning canyoneers who could descend that canyon without smearing off the moss, kind of like a cryptogamic soil issue. An experienced and careful rappeller is far less likely leave muddy, smeared out footprints down the line and a pile of moss at the bottom. No way to know whether the purchaser of the guidebook falls into the former or latter category. Even if I were a guidebook author, I would not publish a canyon like that, if I thought I were the initial discover. I would only reveal its location to people who were, in my judgment, competent enough to traverse it without ruining it, and would ask them to do the same. Moreover, I would not find it "odd, intriguing, and even comical" that another person had done the same.

    One other point: It is a mistake to assume that this forum and Bogley are interchangeable just because they are "essentially the same people & community." For better or worse, this site generally reflects the spirit and ethic of its moderators, as imbued through the thousands of posts from hundreds of contributors. So, it has its own presence, if you will. I have a great deal of respect for Tom and Ram and the other moderators here, and you may come to appreciate this site's unique qualities going forward.

    This sport is a great and grand privilege, but (to borrow a New Testament analogy) where much is given, much is required--in terms of ethics, attitude, respect and care. It's not wakeboarding (which, I'm sure, deserves its own respect and care, but which is not practiced in quite as fragile an environment). I wish you had thought about these issues, maybe even talked about them with some of the wise, experienced hands out there, before you made your decisions. All of us can benefit from their wisdom, and vice versa.
    >
  18. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    There are "moss issues" in EVERY canyon. Guide book authors and website beta providers SHOULD make a careful decision about what information they provide. For instance, when your beta comes from a source that broke a solemn agreement to provide you with beta, your personal integrity is slimed if you further the breach-of-integrity by making the beta public.

    Only a foolish or super-egotistical author would publish pretty much every canyon he has done. It is simply irresponsible to consider the effects of what you publish.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "vapormanb" <vapormanb@...> wrote:
    Very valid points! I also do enjoy this forum over Bogley and we have Tom and Ram to thank for that. The moss issue is something I've only recently come to appreciate. When i started out in popular canyons, most of the moss in the rappel line was knocked off long ago. As i've gotten better in preserving the moss while on rappel, I cringe and yell at my canyon buddies as they smear and break off moss in the lesser visited canyons... =>
  19. Ryan

    Ryan Guest

    Yes Tom, thanks alot... thanks to your guide book I pine for Goose Creek and Battle Creek/Eye of The Needle... knowing that it is unlikely that I can ever do them:)

    Their siren song would have no impact if you hadn't done such a great job of describing them...

    Ryan --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    There are "moss issues" in EVERY canyon. Guide book authors and website beta providers SHOULD make a careful decision about what information they provide. For instance, when your beta comes from a source that broke a solemn agreement to provide you with beta, your personal integrity is slimed if you further the breach-of-integrity by making the beta public.
    Only a foolish or super-egotistical author would publish pretty much every canyon he has done. It is simply irresponsible to consider the effects of what you publish.
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "vapormanb" <vapormanb@> wrote:

    Very valid points! I also do enjoy this forum over Bogley and we have Tom and Ram to thank for that. The moss issue is something I've only recently come to appreciate. When i started out in popular canyons, most of the moss in the rappel line was knocked off long ago. As i've gotten better in preserving the moss while on rappel, I cringe and yell at my canyon buddies as they smear and break off moss in the lesser visited canyons... =
    >
  20. Wayne Burns

    Wayne Burns Guest

    I agree with the sentiment, I would love to see both of those canyons...but correct me if I'm wrong: one could have Tom guide you through Oak Creek via ZAC?



    To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: ryanfosterlee@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:51:39 &#43;0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: NPS Report on Zion Incidents





    Yes Tom, thanks alot... thanks to your guide book I pine for Goose Creek and Battle Creek/Eye of The Needle... knowing that it is unlikely that I can ever do them:)

    Their siren song would have no impact if you hadn't done such a great job of describing them...

    Ryan --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    There are "moss issues" in EVERY canyon. Guide book authors and website beta providers SHOULD make a careful decision about what information they provide. For instance, when your beta comes from a source that broke a solemn agreement to provide you with beta, your personal integrity is slimed if you further the breach-of-integrity by making the beta public.
    Only a foolish or super-egotistical author would publish pretty much every canyon he has done. It is simply irresponsible to consider the effects of what you publish.
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "vapormanb" <vapormanb@> wrote:

    Very valid points! I also do enjoy this forum over Bogley and we have Tom and Ram to thank for that. The moss issue is something I've only recently come to appreciate. When i started out in popular canyons, most of the moss in the rappel line was knocked off long ago. As i've gotten better in preserving the moss while on rappel, I cringe and yell at my canyon buddies as they smear and break off moss in the lesser visited canyons... =
    >
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