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Northwash carpool this weekend? Re: canyonfest

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by beadysee, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    Also looking for person or persons interested in carpooling to Northwash on this Saturday morning. Wouldn't mind an early enough departure from the Salt Lake City area to be able to do something short on Saturday.

    Wouldn't need to come home Sunday night.

    I've not done any of the canyons in that area, so, am interested in some of the scenic easy rigs.

    Please let me know.

    Thanks!

    -Brian in SLC

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Catherinie Mcvey <mcveycatherinie@...> wrote:
    hi all: > anyone from the salt lake area want to drive down to canyonfest saturday afternoon, do some canyoneering sunday,monday and return back to slc monday evening?
  2. RAM

    RAM Guest

    Inquiring minds want to know......How did the big guy find North Wash? With so many pioneering efforts in Zion and 1st ascents on crags far and wide, under the belt...how did you find Leprechaun and Hog 1? R

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
    Also looking for person or persons interested in carpooling to Northwash on this Saturday morning. Wouldn't mind an early enough departure from the Salt Lake City area to be able to do something short on Saturday.
    Wouldn't need to come home Sunday night.
    I've not done any of the canyons in that area, so, am interested in some of the scenic easy rigs.
    Please let me know.
    Thanks!
    -Brian in SLC
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Catherinie Mcvey <mcveycatherinie@> wrote:

    hi all:
    anyone from the salt lake area want to drive down to canyonfest saturday afternoon, do some canyoneering sunday,monday and return back to slc monday evening? >
  3. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote: > Inquiring minds want to know......How did the big guy find North Wash? With so many pioneering efforts in Zion and 1st ascents on crags far and wide, under the belt...how did you find Leprechaun and Hog 1? > R

    Fun. 'Bout right for me.

    Hadn't done anything in the North Wash area so, was neat to see some of that stuff. Amazing how much there is. Great scenery. Kinda reminds me I need to get to the desert more often. Between skiing, ice climbing, and the super long rock season up here, its hard to find time. Best to make some time, it seems!

    I'll have to say...as far as personal thoughts on that stuff, the long stemming and chimney stuff just isn't my cup of tea. I prefer the rap and swim kiddie canyons I suppose.

    Right after that weekend, had a group chat about it at IME and ran into Rick T. there as well. Too funny, and, great timing. Between Scott and Merril and a couple local bad arse climbers, everyone there (maybe excepting Merril) had done some North Wash canyons, including Scott, who's spent a gob of time putting up new climbing routes in/near North Wash. A local climber kinda summed it up for me: "yeah, after about 15 feet of sideways stemming, I'm over it."

    I thought some of the movement in the canyons was super fun, though. Very neat full body contortion type stuff, its own kind of dance, to be sure. But, the full on narrow shuffling with the pack hanging below by a sling? Ok for a move or two, and, neat to see those types of features, but, not something I'd seek out for "fun". Pretty amazing features.

    Can see the attraction, though. Demented as you guys are...ha ha. I still think your "unnatural" anchors suck and the damage caused is fairly significant (rope groves, busted off fins and fragile features). Would bolts solve some of those issues? Maybe, but, I can see how it take away from the experience required without, too, so, nice to have a balance of different styles. But, "unnatural" anchoring ain't better 'cause they're less impact, to be sure. Probably the impact is just the shear volume of folks, with a super wide range of abilities, going through the canyons. To be expected, bolts or no. So, no eye opening there as far as anchors are concerned and probably more ammo for the bolt debate from "my" side, but, I seem to have less energy for the debate and less of a dog in that hunt anyhow, so, probably won't be arguing as much about it at least here. That rock is soft! And, easy to damage regardless of your style.

    Good social weekend. Always good to see you guys. Amazing the niche of core folks who are into this stuff and the push for exploration and new techniques. Pretty cool.

    Great to see Steve's new Boulder climbing guide, too. One of the highlights. Gotta get a signed copy...

    Fun stuff. Thanks for havin' us.

    -Brian in SLC
  4. RAM

    RAM Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@> wrote:
    Inquiring minds want to know......How did the big guy find North Wash? With so many pioneering efforts in Zion and 1st ascents on crags far and wide, under the belt...how did you find Leprechaun and Hog 1?
    R
    Fun. 'Bout right for me. > Hadn't done anything in the North Wash area so, was neat to see some of that stuff. Amazing how much there is. Great scenery. Kinda reminds me I need to get to the desert more often.

    Old dog, new tricks. Glad you came.


    Right after that weekend, had a group chat about it at IME and ran into Rick T. there as well. Too funny, and, great timing. Between Scott and Merril and a couple local bad arse climbers, everyone there (maybe excepting Merril) had done some North Wash canyons, including Scott, who's spent a gob of time putting up new climbing routes in/near North Wash. A local climber kinda summed it up for me: "yeah, after about 15 feet of sideways stemming, I'm over it."

    It not being someone's cup of tea is easy to understand. Its also true that many of these canyons call on one to do many more moves than the side way shuffle and there is great variety scenery wise within the pool of such canyons. Wonders await visually. One has to do, to see, I'm afraid. Weird angles in many places. Pictures fail to capture it, more often than not. Fun stuff.

    > Can see the attraction, though. Demented as you guys are...ha ha.

    We resemble that remark!

    I still think your "unnatural" anchors suck and the damage caused is fairly significant (rope groves, busted off fins and fragile features). Would bolts solve some of those issues? Maybe, but, I can see how it take away from the experience required without, too, so, nice to have a balance of different styles. But, "unnatural" anchoring ain't better 'cause they're less impact, to be sure. Probably the impact is just the shear volume of folks, with a super wide range of abilities, going through the canyons. To be expected, bolts or no. So, no eye opening there as far as anchors are concerned and probably more ammo for the bolt debate from "my" side,



    Mmmmm. I think you saw 6 anchors or so? Maybe 2 pretty mandatory raps? No deadmen. No cairns. What were they? Slung blocks and wedged rocks? Perhaps not the best place to make your arguments, but yeah, the damage is quite real. That 3 way bend up high in Leprechaun..... Grooves all over. I swear there was less this year. Could there be sawing away of whole edges, bit by bit. Definitely a traffic and experience issue mostly. Other impacts? The walls are becoming smoother from the traffic. I'm glad there are no bolts there because all the novices would think bolts the primary solution for all anchoring. If you got a hammer, everything looks like a nail. That said....Its been awhile since I was in Boss Hog. Any impacts at the 3 raps? What's it looking like? Anyone ?

    That rock is soft! And, easy to damage regardless of your style.

    Fraid so. Spot on. Considering the traffic, I would say results could be a lot worse.

    > Good social weekend. Always good to see you guys. Amazing the niche of core folks who are into this stuff and the push for exploration and new techniques. Pretty cool.

    It is a rather large and extended collection of different adventure groups down there. And as you hint, perhaps new ghosting methods will make some of the old and tired anchor arguments somewhat largely moot.

    > Great to see Steve's new Boulder climbing guide, too. One of the highlights. Gotta get a signed copy...

    Mr. Levin is on the board here. I'm sure he appreciates the sentiment. His Eldorado Canyon guide gets reviewed in the December edition of Climbing Magazine. I hear it is called a masterpiece. Rumor also has a canyoneering article by Dave Black in the same edition, but I can't confirm that. Great seeing you again. It was such a shock, I didn't recognize you at first! As you once said to me..."No way!!!" ;-) Ram
  5. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote: > It not being someone's cup of tea is easy to understand. Its also true that many of these canyons call on one to do many more moves than the side way shuffle and there is great variety scenery wise within the pool of such canyons. Wonders await visually. One has to do, to see, I'm afraid. Weird angles in many places. Pictures fail to capture it, more often than not. Fun stuff.

    Yeah, its a tough place to photograph (huge Kudo's to Dan, etc). I think everytime I used a flash there was dust in the air and it looks like its snowing...

    > Mmmmm. I think you saw 6 anchors or so? Maybe 2 pretty mandatory raps? No deadmen. No cairns. What were they? Slung blocks and wedged rocks?

    We rappelled once in each canyon. From the anchors already slung. Stacked rocks in a pothole in the EF of Lep and that huge block slung in Boss Hog. At the bottom of each drop you could see some rope grooves. They were worse in the EF of Lep (and that anchor was kinda sketchy, moving a bit, but...used 'er with reckless abandon like most folks do I suppose). The fin below that rap was all busted off and had rope grooves. The rap in Boss Hog had minimal damage, probably due to the short drop and how the rope is pitched out a tad and the rappeller kinda pops that last short steep bit at the bottom. Neat feature, kind of looks like someone took a knife to a block of swiss cheese or some such. Amazing.

    Someone had a built a deadman anchor in the EF of Lep at the first drop (which we downclimbed, and, we cleaned the blue sling and rap ring). Ugly little rig. Anytime you can see an anchor from over a 100 meters away...

    Anyhoo, made sense to at least belay that drop, which we did, and I gave Allen the all clear to downclimb as it was easier than expected (although he'd downclimbed almost all the way down then back up to give me a belay).

    >Perhaps not the best place to make your arguments, but yeah, the damage is quite real. That 3 way bend up high in Leprechaun..... Grooves all over. I swear there was less this year. Could there be sawing away of whole edges, bit by bit.

    That first drop in the EF of Lep that we downclimbed had huge sawn through chunks that were especially visible in the late afternoon light we had. Really noticeable. Looked like a chunked out saw blade from below. Crazy. Wouldn't really matter what anchor you had for that kind of damage, perhaps. Maybe a well placed one would limit the damage, but, that rock is soft. I kinda wonder, though, if folks are lowering single strand down that section and if that accounts for the rope grooves. Huge difference in talent for sure in that area.

    Be an interesting thing to study whether larger diameter ropes, done double strand, would help limit damage. The biner/knot block single strand cat is out of the bag for sure though (!). Still think we needed to debate rope rigging more as I kinda missed it a bit, since there were only a couple of rappels. Ha ha. Did get to hear someone wank about the dynamic rope we brought, though. "Ohhh, bouncy bouncy".

    >I'm glad there are no bolts there because all the novices would think bolts the primary solution for all anchoring.

    Would be an issue in those canyons, as they're considered good "beginner" canyons.

    Debatable as a "primary" solution. And, those canyons do attract folks of all difference abilities.

    Is pretty amazing that either there hasn't been bolting, or, any bolts placed have been removed with little or no evidence. Probably the most amazing thing about those canyons (besides the great scenery) come to think about it. Speaks well for the "no bolt" message that's out there, regardless of the debate.

    >If you got a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    Same could be said for chosing to not have a hammer. Sometimes, havin' the right tool for the job makes a smaller long term mess...(!).

    And, its nice to have a choice. But, also nice to have diversity.

    >That said....Its been awhile since I was in Boss Hog. Any impacts at the 3 raps? What's it looking like? Anyone ?

    Dunno what the "3 raps" are.

    > Fraid so. Spot on. Considering the traffic, I would say results could be a lot worse.

    Yeah, really not too bad, considering. Did see very little in the way of garbage, too, which is nice. Even the social trails weren't that intrusive (and, welcome in fact, if a bit sandy). Hardly any crust busted!

    > And as you hint, perhaps new ghosting methods will make some of the old and tired anchor arguments somewhat largely moot.

    Nah, most still involve moving around materials "natural" to the canyon and seeing it as "natural" anchoring. The ghosting methods that, scary enough, work best are folks descending with gnarly downclimbing skills and not having to "anchor". But, expecting folks to follow suit with a variable amount of skills especially in a soon-to-be high traffic canyon (when word gets out that its "classic) might be tough, as far as some type of preservation is concerned.

    Crazy game, though, and neat to see the solutions being pursued.

    > Mr. Levin is on the board here. I'm sure he appreciates the sentiment. His Eldorado Canyon guide gets reviewed in the December edition of Climbing Magazine. I hear it is called a masterpiece.

    Hey, anyone that gives "the Bomb" three stars has to be a masterpiece themself! Ha ha.

    Can't wait to peruse it closer. Really thought Handren's Red Rock guide set the bar. Pretty neat. Almost wished it was self published, though, but, that's a tough row to hoe.

    >Rumor also has a canyoneering article by Dave Black in the same edition, but I can't confirm that.

    The ever elusive DB. That'd be cool.

    Cheers,

    -Brian in SLC
  6. Malia

    Malia Guest

  7. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Malia" <msmnificent@...> wrote: > Brian, > Here's Rob's Middle Leprechaun story that I told you about: > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0503lep/index2.htm
    Great read... > -Malia

    That's pretty funny!

    I can relate to some of that...

    Won't be gettin' any better if I keep dining at Fiddler's (nice to see you, btw!).

    When we gonna get some decent snow to ski? Gotta keep reminding myself that its only November...

    Cheers!

    -Brian in SLC
  8. forum8fox

    forum8fox Guest

    I'm jumping in late here, so what are the routes that are being developed around north wash? Driving on the road down towards and slightly past hog springs there looks to be a fair amount of potential for mostly classic looking lines. Most of which would probly be aid routes for me and most people. But I'm sure there are some free-able lines that would be good too. There is probly work to be done around the view finder towers too.

    I find it kinda supprising that climbers could not enjoy the extended stemming stuff. I guess it's just a different style depending on what kind of climbing you normaly do. I find it alot like chimneying at times. Also if you get insecure for what ever reason you pretty much always have the option of the easy and bomber knee and back jamb shuffle. There is for sure some movement required that is somewhat specific to the disciplin. mostly the stemming and gauloping. although the stemming can be alot like climbing at times, your just going foreward not up. The key is you seek your route differently.

    Instead of just looking for a line of holds you should pay attention to width in relation to your body size, picking the right movement is crucial when trying to save energy. Paying attention to the slope of the walls as you go can help you pick the right technique in conjunction with the width and the holds you have to work with. Some times it's easier to go down and back up, some times it's easier to stay high, some times you have no option so you work your technique.

    I'm not sure if it's the technique or the exposure or just the movement all together that bothers you. I like moderate free soloing on the rock 5.4 ish so I find the stemming alot lower in consequence MOST of the time, compared to the flatirons that is. I would not solo 5.7 on the flatirons but 5.7 chimneying in a canyon 30-100' off the deck doesn't seem too bad.

    As far as the anchors go, the push should be made to clean retrievable anchors unless it's not possible. I like the pot shots, seems the sand trap will be a nice addition. Retrievable webbing is good too for huecos, arches, bollards, trees, the right boulder even.

    I say it's like bolting a crack that can take good gear. As far as the rope grooves go...

    The worst rope grooves I've ever seen in my life are on a climbing route called zenyetta entrada in arches. it's got bolted anchors. It's a matter of the line of pull from the rope, it's the rope that saw's these grooves and one must pay attention to extending things properly if it's a webbing anchor, if using pot shots or the trap I say get it as close to the lip as you can so there is less wear on the lip. The rock is soft, yes...

    Soft enough that it errodes bolts out of the water course to the point that they are on the verge of being litter. If the grooves are in the water course they will most likely errode aswell. Most of these pot shot and sand trap anchor set ups will be right in the water course. Bolts force everyone to rap in the same spot, which means most always the rope is going to pull from the same spot. atleast if people ghosted, their anchors would stagger in location a little more as we get more options to be creative and place things in differnent places.

    Just like how we learned to use pot shots to build dismantleable dead man anchors right on the edge of the drop with minimal lip. You could carry a tarp and attatch it to the pull line of your shot's or trap so the pull line doesn't wear grooves in the rock. The tough scenerio becomes pulling your rope on raps that corkscrew and go around corners. Bolts aren't going to prevent this issue.

    Bolts are for lazy/scared people unless they are the only option IMO. It should be like wall climbing, aren't people generally frowned on for over drilling where it could be passed by someone else or the line just wasn't ment to be? Obviously sometimes there is no avoiding a bolt no matter what, even if you had all the new age equipment and techniques. Let's save them all for that occasion!

    Bolting everything up takes away the challange of having to figure things out for yourself, which to me is a huge part of what makes this fun. I like that most canyoneers seem to endorse the natural anchor cause, I just wish we could evolve and stop leaving everything fixed for the next guy to just walk up and rap on down with out ever having to think. Plus maybe the rap isn't necessary anyway just like we found in the squeeze and no kidding where we down climbed and cleaned un-necessary, un-sightly webbing and chord.

    Canyoneering is about team work right (most people don't do these solo and for good reason, would you trust a shot or trap or any anchor with out having a meat back up or watching someone a fair bit heavier then you rap first)? bring a strong down climber along and sequence people down, for drops that less experienced people are too scared to climb down. Then there is never a pull of rope and the risk of grooves at an un-necessary rap.

    Sorry for what might seem like a rant at times, I just wanted to get my perspective out there and shed a different spectrum of light on the sittuation. BTW I'm pretty new to this aswell, so I don't think I'm any sort of expert. but it goes to show even a knowledgable noobie can hang with the ethic that the pros are purposing.
  9. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    There are plenty of routes on the Wingate there that have been free-climbed by folks out of Moab. I don't know of any guide to the routes but I bet that there are a number of named routes there. Possibly check the climbing shops in Moab. Dave

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "forum8fox" <forum8fox@...> wrote:
    I'm jumping in late here, so what are the routes that are being developed around north wash? Driving on the road down towards and slightly past hog springs there looks to be a fair amount of potential for mostly classic looking lines. Most of which would probly be aid routes for me and most people. But I'm sure there are some free-able lines that would be good too. There is probly work to be done around the view finder towers too. >
  10. RAM

    RAM Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "forum8fox" <forum8fox@...> wrote: >> so what are the routes that are being developed around north wash? Driving on the road down towards and slightly past hog springs there looks to be a fair amount of potential for mostly classic looking lines. Most of which would probly be aid routes for me and most people.

    That is the beauty of all these Wingate walls all over the place. They got lines on them just begging to be done. Unexplored canyons? They are out there but the sheer volume of undeveloped climbing areas is stunning!

    > I find it kinda supprising that climbers could not enjoy the extended stemming stuff.

    I just think there isn't a lot of people who have tried it. Not a lot of easily accessable places to experiment. And a lot of folks that don't have the desire. Lets be truthful here. At crags you can protect yourself with gear. This stuff? Not so easily. People canyon for a lot of different reasons, not all of them "challenge" based.


    Instead of just looking for a line of holds you should pay attention to width in relation to your body size, picking the right movement is crucial when trying to save energy. Paying attention to the slope of the walls as you go can help you pick the right technique in conjunction with the width and the holds you have to work with. Some times it's easier to go down and back up, some times it's easier to stay high, some times you have no option so you work your technique.

    I really like this last paragraph. Many think that movement in these places are repetitive. Anything but! As for route finding, I tend to pick a nice ledge some distance ahead and work the best angle to it. By dividing it up into smaller pieces, it doesn't seem so daunting. Inexperience in route finding has slowed many a 5.12 climber in this environ. There are many different techniques too. Back and feet tends to be slow, but conserves energy. Galumphing (facing downcanyon with feet and hands on different sides tends to be very fast but uses lots of energy. I find that these two ways of doing it balance nicely on energy expenditure. What I tend to do is use both, alternately, with an eye to not using any muscle group too much, with conservation of energy the primary goal. The transitioning (our name for it) from one side to the other or one method to the other is a very pretty movement. Like a graceful back step set climbing moves. Everyone finds the position they feel most comfortable with. For me it is galumphing, but with a hip or thigh as a primary point of contact. Used to be my left side I would use most. Since the knee injury, I tend to use the right hip and thigh more now. Fun stuff.



    > As far as the anchors go, the push should be made to clean retrievable anchors unless it's not possible. I like the pot shots, seems the sand trap will be a nice addition. Retrievable webbing is good too for huecos, arches, bollards, trees, the right boulder even.

    While I would love for retrievable anchors to become ever more popular, I think many of the more traveled routes and canyons may be better served with established (note, I did not say fixed;-)) anchors. Its not reasonable to expect canyons being done several times a day or week, by a wide range of folks with different skill sets and experience levels, to not have some road map of anchoring visible. What I would hope is that folks would support having areas where these techniques can be employed as the main method. Places that are more remote or seldom visited. Its a great arm of the sport and it should be allowed its own playing field. Truth is, that the more people dabble in retrievables, the more they enjoy it and it leaves these places pristine. A nice side benefit. You can feel it when you are in such a place and everyone, even people new to pristine canyons, really really like it. YMMV

    > Bolting everything up takes away the challange of having to figure things out for yourself, which to me is a huge part of what makes this fun. I like that most canyoneers seem to endorse the natural anchor cause, I just wish we could evolve and stop leaving everything fixed for the next guy to just walk up and rap on down with out ever having to think.



    Many pursue the sport for many different reasons. Some to access the beauty. Some for exercise and a day in the fresh air. Others to share time with friends. To some, just to do some rappels is exciting enough. I'm happy there are places for people to have these experiences. The amount of places where one can to this sort of thing is growing too. I just hope some places are left for others to find the joy, in the parts of the sport they enjoy too, such as challenging climbing and canyons free of anchor material. Just seems fair.



    > Canyoneering is about team work right (most people don't do these solo and for good reason, would you trust a shot or trap or any anchor with out having a meat back up or watching someone a fair bit heavier then you rap first)? bring a strong down climber along and sequence people down, for drops that less experienced people are too scared to climb down. Then there is never a pull of rope and the risk of grooves at an un-necessary rap.



    It is about teamwork and the "backing up" of anchors is wonderful style. And for some its not being scared as much as sound recognition of where their skill level is and perhaps how the are climbing that particular day. Or choosing to avoid risk. AND they can be a part of a lower impact team using these methods by capturing, spotting, shuttling packs. Lots of tasks to go around. It nice when we break out of our usual teams and play with others. Not only the social aspect, but the ideas and methods shared enrich all.


    Sorry for what might seem like a rant at times, I just wanted to get my perspective out there and shed a different spectrum of light on the situation. BTW I'm pretty new to this as well, so I don't think I'm any sort of expert. but it goes to show even a knowledgeable noobie can hang with the ethic that the pros are purposing.

    And thank you for importing some fresh and youthful energy into the discussion. I HOPE many will take up more of the low impact, retrievable tools. And that the majority of the sports participants will follow at a distance and with interest, those finding new and more challenging goals. Ram
  11. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "forum8fox" <forum8fox@...> wrote: > I'm jumping in late here, so what are the routes that are being developed around north wash?

    I'm only aware of a few of them. I think Scott at IME has put up a gob of them, and, probably some of the most difficult ones. Which is why folks are seeking them out.

    Yeah, they'd be aid for me too!

    > I find it kinda supprising that climbers could not enjoy the extended stemming stuff.

    I think most generally do. But, to a person who free climbs at a fairly high level (not me), I wonder if the sideways shuffling thing just seems like work after awhile, compared to the style of climbing they really enjoy (you probably nailed it there).

    So, its not really that they "could not" enjoy it, but, that they prefer other more styles of climbing they find more personally aesthetic.

    > I'm not sure if it's the technique or the exposure or just the movement all together that bothers you.

    I'm not really "bothered" by it. I just find it mundane after a few feet. And, it seems like work (!).

    And, actually, some of the movement was very very fun. But, I'm not one who seeks out wide-ish off width and chimney type climbing, but, recognize those skills are pretty nice to have for being a well rounded climber.

    Exposure? There's almost no exposure in a slot canyon to me. A wide crack over a skinny crack drop isn't "exposed" for me. Sure, I ponder how much it would suck to end up stuck in a slot like that but I don't have a feeling of "exposure" per se.

    >I like moderate free soloing on the rock 5.4 ish so I find the stemming alot lower in consequence MOST of the time, compared to the flatirons that is. I would not solo 5.7 on the flatirons but 5.7 chimneying in a canyon 30-100' off the deck doesn't seem too bad.

    So, different type of exposure perhaps. And, maybe its easier slipping down a 5.7 chimney than climbing up one?

    > The worst rope grooves I've ever seen in my life are on a climbing route called zenyetta entrada in arches...The rock is soft, yes...

    That's more the issue than anchor position. I've seen deep grooves in Arches caused by just pulling the rope up. Crazy.

    > Soft enough that it errodes bolts out of the water course to the point that they are on the verge of being litter.

    Where is that? One example please.

    My thought is that watercourses tend to be where the harder rock is.

    >The tough scenerio becomes pulling your rope on raps that corkscrew and go around corners. Bolts aren't going to prevent this issue.

    Fixed anchors could help, but, its a tough nut to crack for sure.

    Digging in canyons to fill potshots and tarps and sandtraps is construction, and, not really "natural" anchoring either. Any time you move materials around "building" anchors your having an impact. The difference might be that your impact looks natural, but, its still impact.

    > Bolts are for lazy/scared people unless they are the only option IMO.

    Which is pure bullshit.

    Scared is folks who spend 2 hours building a 4 foot high stack of rocks, or, an hour burying someone's pack in the dirt, or, import rocks up and down the canyon to build "unnatural" anchors instead of realizing they have an impact too and that reasonably placed fixed anchors would be part of that solution.

    >It should be like wall climbing, aren't people generally frowned on for over drilling where it could be passed by someone else or the line just wasn't ment to be? Obviously sometimes there is no avoiding a bolt no matter what, even if you had all the new age equipment and techniques. Let's save them all for that occasion!

    Sure, and climbers debate that type of stuff endlessly.

    So, maybe save the canyons for folks who have the skills to descend them without digging and/or moving materials around? Ok, I'm good with that. Ha ha.

    Remember, failure is an option.

    > Bolting everything up takes away the challange of having to figure things out for yourself, which to me is a huge part of what makes this fun.

    You could say the same if you take a shovel, a pot shot, a sandtrap and gobs of other equipment into the canyon. Maybe go without any gear, and, you'll have a much bigger challenge, eh?

    It's a game, isn't it?

    Folks seem to really dig (ha ha) this "unnatural" anchoring stuff and I get that. But to say everyone should have to descend canyons in that style is silly. Folks have different reasons for descending canyons. And to denegrate someone else's style as "lazy and scared" is part of the problem.

    >I like that most canyoneers seem to endorse the natural anchor cause, I just wish we could evolve and stop leaving everything fixed for the next guy to just walk up and rap on down with out ever having to think.

    I fully support that. But, don't kid yourself that most of the techniques you're referring to are "natural". You've moving material, your "building" an anchor, that isn't "natural".

    And, its about style too. Maybe the guy that doesn't have to do "constuction" of an anchor doesn't have to think about moving materials around but rather more important stuff, like how neat the scenery is and how much fun they're having.

    > Canyoneering is about team work right (most people don't do these solo and for good reason, would you trust a shot or trap or any anchor with out having a meat back up or watching someone a fair bit heavier then you rap first)?

    Yeah, of course not. I mean, these "unnatural" anchoring solutions just aren't that solid, are they?

    > bring a strong down climber along and sequence people down, for drops that less experienced people are too scared to climb down.

    Kind of boils down to ego a bit, eh?

    Easy to denegrate the person who doesn't want to get hurt as "scared" and "less experienced" instead of "smart" and "saavy". I suspect there's more than enough of each.

    > Sorry for what might seem like a rant at times, I just wanted to get my perspective out there and shed a different spectrum of light on the sittuation. BTW I'm pretty new to this aswell, so I don't think I'm any sort of expert. but it goes to show even a knowledgable noobie can hang with the ethic that the pros are purposing.

    Ethics and style. Everyone wants their own sandbox.

    Pros? Myopia.

    Funny stuff.

    Cheers,

    -Brian in SLC
  12. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "forum8fox" <forum8fox@> wrote:

    > bring a strong down climber along and sequence people down, for > drops that less experienced people are too scared to climb down.

    I have a great book for you, its called "How to Win Friends and Influence People". I'm pretty sure you haven't read it.

    Since I am more experienced than you, in both climbing and canyoneering (you being a young whippersnapper by comparison), you obviously don't include ME in the above degradation, but, as BDC said, folks do canyons for a variety of reasons, and risking their necks (or tibias or femurs) to do a marginal downclimb might not be everybody's cup of tea.

    I often rappel things I could downclimb because I'm smart, not because I'm scared. As a 'silverback', I know that taking chances time after time after time, I could get complacent and/or unlucky and screw up and get seriously hurt; therefore I ration the risk I take. If there is a good anchor easily available, and especially if there are others in the party who would prefer not to downclimb, then I am perfectly willing to rappel. Sometimes I am stiff or cold or grumpy - sometimes the rock is wet. Whatever, there are plenty of GOOD reasons for people to rap where 8 Foxes would downclimb. More power to ya, just know that if you get yourself hurt or kilt, it impacts the entire community.

    Ah, back to the winter-time sport of cyber-canyoneering, when the smallest of molehills can be be puffed up into a prodigious crag!

    Tom
  13. beadysee

    beadysee Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote: > I often rappel things I could downclimb because I'm smart, not because I'm scared. As a 'silverback', I know that taking chances time after time after time, I could get complacent and/or unlucky and screw up and get seriously hurt; therefore I ration the risk I take.

    I dunno, man, I think you're scared. You can rationalize it all you want.

    Self preservation is a good motivator!

    Scardy cat!

    Ha ha ha. Silverback.

    Cheers man, and, good luck with all them "cannon fodder" kids out there. Can they really be "followers" if you make them go first?

    Har har!

    See you up here in a week or so?

    -Brian in SLC
  14. RAM

    RAM Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote: > Exposure? There's almost no exposure in a slot canyon to me. A wide crack over a skinny crack drop isn't "exposed" for me. Sure, I ponder how much it would suck to end up stuck in a slot like that but I don't have a feeling of "exposure" per se.

    Ahhhhhhhh. True. Sandthrax is in fact like that mostly. But that insidious feature!! The SILO!!! Be afraid! VERY afraid! ;-)


    Soft enough that it errodes bolts out of the water course to the point that they are on the verge of being litter.
    Where is that? One example please. > My thought is that watercourses tend to be where the harder rock is.

    Allow me!! http://tinyurl.com/yzpp52m http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/October2009#5395571568415923042 1st one is from Waterholes and the 2nd one is from Poe Canyon. Does happen, but takes time most times. Sometimes big water events make them go away fast, but methinks that's the nature of big water events.



    > Digging in canyons to fill potshots and tarps and sandtraps is construction, and, not really "natural" anchoring either. Any time you move materials around "building" anchors your having an impact. The difference might be that your impact looks natural, but, its still impact.

    I love this!! Glad to see that your moderating your comments, with the changing times. Quite fair and sporting of you really! Recently it was building cairns, farming rocks, digging big holes. Your right to infer that these newer techniques impact the environment a lot less than some of the old ones. Great news, is it not? And they leave nothing behind either. But your also right that they "do" have some impacts. Tis true. But really, what are we talking about with these type anchors? Sand. And not a lot of it either to build these anchors. The canyon's sand is on a big, canyon long, conveyor belt. Each flood, more down and more to replace it. Might just be an unlimited supply of it, depending on the slot. I hope future techniques impact the environ even less, in days to come!!



    > Scared is folks who spend 2 hours building a 4 foot high stack of rocks, or, an hour burying someone's pack in the dirt, or, import rocks up and down the canyon to build "unnatural" anchors

    What did Reagan used to say? "There you go again!" And you were doing so well! "Scared" comment was bad. Got some folks dander up it seems.



    > So, maybe save the canyons for folks who have the skills to descend them without digging and/or moving materials around? Ok, I'm good with that. Ha ha.

    Actually there are plenty of those already. Psycho Damage among them. Others do Shim and Shamrock without gear, up and down. Knotaboy Roy too. Cheesebox by many now also. Kinda apples and oranges, in a way. On the one hand, places getting ghosted. Moves materials a tiny bit. Then others doing tech canyons without gear, pushing other envelopes. Good too, as long as they don't get hurt.

    > You could say the same if you take a shovel, a pot shot, a sandtrap and gobs of other equipment into the canyon. Maybe go without any gear, and, you'll have a much bigger challenge, eh?

    Exactly! And it is what some are doing in some places. Its what Dave Black's article in December's Climbing Magazine was about. And how many places will get done this way? We shall see.

    > It's a game, isn't it?

    Yes it is. Fun too.


    Folks seem to really dig (ha ha) this "unnatural" anchoring stuff and I get that.

    Brian, sometimes I worry that I may lose perspective. Get caught up in my own arguments. Its really important to get outside input on these things. On the recent trip Steve Levin and Roger Briggs both fell hard for the sand anchoring techniques. When a pair of top notch legends from the climbing world signed on, it made it seem like we were onto something. Roger called the anchoring ""soft anchors" because of the ease and how they erase themselves. Pretty neat. These guys thought it valid and safe.

    But to say everyone should have to descend canyons in that style is silly. Folks have different reasons for descending canyons. And to denegrate someone else's style as "lazy and scared" is part of the problem.

    I agree. Jason, I support your views, but be careful with the words. They have amazing power for both the good and the bad. Ram
  15. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "forum8fox" <forum8fox@> wrote:
    I'm jumping in late here, so what are the routes that are being
    developed around north wash?
    I'm only aware of a few of them. I think Scott at IME has put up a > gob of them, and, probably some of the most difficult ones. Which is > why folks are seeking them out. >

    Isn't it wonderful that there is an adventure-climbing reserve right down the street? Not all climbs need to be beta'd!

    The best stuff is up the big sidecanyons, well below Hog Springs. One of them has a road. Drive along, spot something you like, heft up the huge rack, and go see what adventure awaits...

    T
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