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North Wash Kiosk

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by davewyo1, Sep 13, 2009.

  1. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

  2. iceaxe_us

    iceaxe_us Guest

    Dave, thanks for posting the pictures. I knew the BLM put up the kiosk but I had not seen it.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@...> wrote: The signboard at Sandthrax Campground in North Wash has been completed. Photos are here, and on the Homepage: http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/Kiosk# Dave
  3. wmjaho

    wmjaho Guest

    I can think of a half-dozen reasons why this is probably a good idea, but it still leaves me feeling kind of sad, like we've just tamed something that until now had an aura of wildness to it.

    I get the same feeling lately when I visit well-publicized canyons and see endless streams of unnecessary webbing, superfluous rings and D-links and, of course, freshly-placed bolts where none previously existed or were needed. All signs of increasing traffic, often from new canyoneers.

    I've only been canyoneering four years and so I'm a johnny-come-lately and part of the problem like many others, but the rapidly-growing popularity of the sport is altering the experience for me. Even in the past four years the feel many canyons seems to have changed dramatically. Part of it is that I often take newcomers and novices on easy (and thus, popular) canyons, so I'm making my own bed (and contributing mightily to the problem). And part of it is also inevitable, I suppose, and is a natural part of the evolution of all new things, places and activities.

    But something about the Sandthrax signs struck me as the death of an era, most of which I can only read about or hear the occasional tales around the campfire.

    And, of course, I need to get out more--farther out. This week , weather permitting, I'm hoping to do a few less-travelled canyons. And I get this nagging feeling that I had better hurry, because before long they may become like Pine Creek, Birch Hollow, East Leprechaun and others. Still fun. Still beautiful. But now so very public, popular and tamed. Bill

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@...> wrote:
    The signboard at Sandthrax Campground in North Wash has been completed. > Photos are here, and on the Homepage: > http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/Kiosk#
    Dave >
  4. ratagonia

    ratagonia Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "wmjaho" <wmjaho@...> wrote:
    I get the same feeling lately when I visit well-publicized canyons and see endless streams of unnecessary webbing, superfluous rings and D-links and, of course, freshly-placed bolts where none previously existed or were needed.

    As there are people intent upon leaving trash IN the canyons, there must also be a balancing force of people removing trash from the canyons, as it appears.

    Tom
  5. restrac2000

    restrac2000 Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "ratagonia" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "wmjaho" <wmjaho@> wrote:

    I get the same feeling lately when I visit well-publicized canyons and see endless streams of unnecessary webbing, superfluous rings and D-links and, of course, freshly-placed bolts where none previously existed or were needed.
    As there are people intent upon leaving trash IN the canyons, there must also be a balancing force of people removing trash from the canyons, as it appears.
    Tom >

    Well said. I just uploaded a photo that this conversation reminded me of, in a folder called "Canyon Trash." (Oops, just realized the title could refer to us in the photo, not the webbing, hehe). Old B&W of a couple days worth of material retrieved from the Roost and North Wash back in 2005(???, date highly suspect). Unfortunately the full story is lost in a basement of photos somewhere in Iowa, which is a photo of the full mound of a month's worth of trash and slings we recovered while living the decadent canyon life for 5 plus weeks. The mound must have been 3 feet tall and 3-4 feet wide. Takes a vigilant effort to keep our canyons clean, hurrah to the modern warriors who carry all our waste out!

    Phillip
  6. davewyo1

    davewyo1 Guest

    Sure, no problem. I think they did a pretty good job. The BLM should consider selling the "poster" for canyoneers to pin up;-) I was a little surprised that the BLM didn't stress trash, human waste, wood collecting, and all that, since the community was informed that they are highly concerned with those aspects of the impacts made in that area by canyoneers. Yes, they mention those points, but they didn't decide to STRESS them IMO. They DID decide to go into a lot of information on canyon safety which is appropriate but I didn't think they would want to get into "advertising" the spectacular canyons that are right there by the roadside in North Wash. Did you find in your communications, that the BLM was more concerned with impact or with people getting in over their heads? I can understand how they would see both issues as a "problem" that needed to be addressed, but I was under the impression that they were "mostly" concerned with trash... BTW, the "micro-trash" at "Sandthrax Campground" is getting to the point where someone may want to start another "annual" service project. I would be glad to pitch in if I can arrange the days off... Dave

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "iceaxe_us" <iceaxe_us@...> wrote:
    Dave, thanks for posting the pictures. I knew the BLM put up the kiosk but I had not seen it.
    > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "davewyo1" <davewyo1@> wrote: > The signboard at Sandthrax Campground in North Wash has been completed. > Photos are here, and on the Homepage: > http://picasaweb.google.com/davewyo1/Kiosk#
    Dave >
  7. iceaxe_us

    iceaxe_us Guest

    >>Did you find in your communications, that the BLM was more concerned with impact or with people getting in over their heads?

    I really didn't get into the nuts and bolts of what the BLM was doing with the Kiosk. They asked if they could use some of the information from Climb-Utah.com and I gave them permission to use anything they wanted.

    I did mention to the BLM that the sign should probably contain a strong warning about Sandthrax being a very dangerous canyon (didn't see that in your pictures).

    I never mentioned that North Wash was considered a natural anchor environment, but I was very happy to see they did stress that. The North Wash Canyons are probably second to Zion in popularity with novice canyoneers. It's nice to get novice considering the idea of natural anchors at an early stage. I always considered that one of the big problems with Zion. We teach noob's to use bolts, and than we have to unteach them when they leave Zion.

    And with regards to the crowds and trash issue.... The Sandthrax campsite is a lot cleaner now than when I first stayed there 10 years ago. When we first started staying there it was used as a parking area for the road crews, bulldozers and dump trucks. The site contained a lot of your typical construction trash and big oil stains all over.

    Since my first visit to Leprechaun the canyon has changed almost nil. Considering the thousands who have enjoyed the canyon in those 10 years and the fact that the Irish Canyons are "the hot spot" for winter canyoneering, I have never been sorry about popularizing these slots. If everyone will pack out just one piece of trash or old webbing on every visit these canyons will stay pristine.

    On last note: I did ask the BLM to contact the Canyon Community first if they have a problem in the area. I told them the canyon community was tight knit and would work with them in any way possible to help with their management of the canyons. I told them we were really good at fixing problems internally if they notify us.. My hope is that we can do a good job of policing ourselves and the BLM will leave us alone (no stupid permits and such).
  8. Nice job, Shane. I think the kiosk is a good thing and time has shown that accurate & detailed beta and the well-worded ethics statements on both yours and Tom's sites have done a good job of preserving the area while still supporting large numbers of canyoneers. I agree that emergence of the area as a concentrated use area with a natural anchor ethic has served as a great counterpoint to Zion. Good stuff.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "iceaxe_us" <iceaxe_us@...> wrote:
    >>Did you find in your communications, that the BLM was more concerned with impact or with people getting in over their heads?
    I really didn't get into the nuts and bolts of what the BLM was doing with the Kiosk. They asked if they could use some of the information from Climb-Utah.com and I gave them permission to use anything they wanted.
    I did mention to the BLM that the sign should probably contain a strong warning about Sandthrax being a very dangerous canyon (didn't see that in your pictures).
    I never mentioned that North Wash was considered a natural anchor environment, but I was very happy to see they did stress that. The North Wash Canyons are probably second to Zion in popularity with novice canyoneers. It's nice to get novice considering the idea of natural anchors at an early stage. I always considered that one of the big problems with Zion. We teach noob's to use bolts, and than we have to unteach them when they leave Zion.
    And with regards to the crowds and trash issue.... The Sandthrax campsite is a lot cleaner now than when I first stayed there 10 years ago. When we first started staying there it was used as a parking area for the road crews, bulldozers and dump trucks. The site contained a lot of your typical construction trash and big oil stains all over.
    Since my first visit to Leprechaun the canyon has changed almost nil. Considering the thousands who have enjoyed the canyon in those 10 years and the fact that the Irish Canyons are "the hot spot" for winter canyoneering, I have never been sorry about popularizing these slots. If everyone will pack out just one piece of trash or old webbing on every visit these canyons will stay pristine.
    On last note: I did ask the BLM to contact the Canyon Community first if they have a problem in the area. I told them the canyon community was tight knit and would work with them in any way possible to help with their management of the canyons. I told them we were really good at fixing problems internally if they notify us.. My hope is that we can do a good job of policing ourselves and the BLM will leave us alone (no stupid permits and such). >
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