Tech Tip: Question Non-Canyon Toggle Problems

Quoting Tom on another thread:

"It has proven to be a poor choice on alpine climbs. There are places where it would work well, but often alpine rappels are too messy, and the fiddle gets stuck. Over and over again.
Tom"

I've used a toggle a number of times outside of canyoneering, but only once in an alpine environment and in a relatively ideal case. I'd like to use a toggle and some amsteel as my primary descent tool on an alpine climb (descending the chevy on the grand teton) this year and save myself the weight of having to carry a second half-rope on the way up. Can anyone give me more detail on issues they've experienced using fiddlesticks outside of canyoneering? Can the stone knot ice up and freeze my fiddlestick inside? Is the primary issues that the fiddlestick gets stuck on rocks on the way down after the pull? Does anyone have experience with amsteel cord freezing and breaking? All edge-case scenarios welcomed, I'm just looking for more information here. Thanks in advance.

Edit: I'd be doing this in the winter when the couloir is more full of ice and snow.

Get a light set of 50m twin ropes. Easy to split the weight. Smooth double rope rappels too.

I think a toggle is a bad idear in the alpine. Easy to stick a lead rope or if you have any issues with the toggle you might be pretty screwed. Things can go pretty sideways in the mountains and a pull cord just isn't that useful in "those" situations. Too tangly. Harder to manage than rappelling two paired dynamic ropes.

You might wander over to TGR and ask them folks (ha ha...rough crowd). Asking on a canyon oriented forum won't really give you good info. You should be asking folks who ski in the Tetons. The Grand gets skied a bunch in the winter (I swear we could see moguls down the Ford a couple years ago with binocs from the road in the winter).

Anyhow, there's a gob of trip reports out there for folks who ski the grand and no one is using a toggle to save weight at least that I've noticed.

On mountain project...ask this guy his opinion:

https://www.mountainproject.com/user/108051719/gee-dubble

Tell him you're worried about disturbing the big horn sheep...(ha ha!). Just kidding.

I think we belayed three pitches up the Stettner prior to the romp up the Ford. Hard water ice. Glad to have a dynamic set of ropes. We descended the standard way (not skiing).

Its not really whether you could use a thin, high strength pull cord in the wintery alpine. Its whether or not you should. Just say no.

Depending on what you carry, I do carry a lightweight crampon bar that could in theory be used if it’s filed smooth on corners. It’s unlikely that the knot would freeze shut, but the piece freezing in the knot is more likely. Doubt the armasteel would break in cold. I do a fair amount of ice climbing and mountaineering and definitely support not doing this. When I’ve done some solo stuff in the mtns, I’ve always used a 6mm pull cord with my main rope. The Beal joker and a pull cord I used primarily and then went to using a half rope with a pull cord when I was going fast and light. You have to tailor it to your environment and raps, it’s definitely not a burly sheath when going that route so knowing limitations.

you can go fast and light if your stuff freezes in the knot or the stick gets snagged in a rock garden and now you’re pulling loose scree onto you. A nice set of half’s will add maybe 2 pounds but give you way more options and you know the system is less likely to get fouled.

I really do appreciate the advice on how best to navigate alpine terrain. There's a reason that the 2 half or twin ropes is the golden standard in alpine climbing and I can totally see why. However in the interest of learning more and gathering data I'm actually mostly interested in information from people who've actually used a toggle in alpine situations. It sounds like Tom has and I'm curious about what Exactly went wrong in each scenario. I don't super want to ask folks who ski in the tetons because I'm assuming (maybe wrongly) that, coming from a climbing/skiing background, using a toggle is barely on their radar much less something they've tried to implement out in the field.

Again, very grateful to people who are recommending better ideas about how to go about this. I'm just really really curious about what problems people have experienced when using toggles outside of a canyoneering environment. If anyone has info or experience on this I'd appreciate the info. Thanks.

The Fiddlestick looks like a simple device, which can be improvised using various objects.

Its simplicity hides some key elements of how it works. For instance, a short Stick (like a crampon bar) would not have the leverage to produce the torque required to align the stick vertically so it can be pulled out of the knot.

Improvisation also probably defeats the benefit of carrying an Amsteel 3mm as the pulling string. Did you bring a pull string but the actual fiddlestick was too heavy? Having the ultralight pull string is what makes the system lightweight in the Alpine... as Mr. Cabe points out, two skinny twin dynamic is likely a more reliable, more functional system at the same weight.

Tom

We used it on the South Face Diagonal Great White Throne route, which is low angle, traversey, and has a bunch of twigs growing out of it. (Essentially, worst case). The thin pull cord gets stuck on bushes and twigs and refuses to be pulled free. In this case, much of the climbing is 4th class, so soloing up to unsnag it was not that big a deal... but pulling through using a 6mm pull cord woulda worked a lot better. The 9mm Beal Joker single rope tends to land on the same twigs and not get tangled, and just pulls off.

We tend to use the Fiddle on canyon rappels that are relatively clean, and/or where the rocketing out upon release clears most obstacles. In this aspect, canyon rappels tend to be cleaner than climbing and especially alpine rappels. Canyon rappels also tend to be shorter.

Tom

The 1/8" amsteel we use would be a bit of a pain to do a pull through with, but if you are only doing one or two, it could work. Larger AMsteel like 3/16" or 1/4" would handle better. a bit heavier and more money. But still considerably lighter than nylon the same size, and nylon being stretchy, the amsteel's lack of stretch is a big win. You can buy here at a reasonable price: https://www.go2marine.com/Samson-AMSTEEL-BLUE-Rope?quantity=1&color=262&diameter=896&length=1297 You will definitely want to run ANY small cord out of a bag, such as the Seco bags we sell, perhaps the light version.

Tom

Thanks Tom! Would it be fair to say the primary issue with using a toggle is tangling of the pull cord? Maybe followed closely by the toggle getting stuck in bushes etc? It sounds like maybe more data is needed. I'll go out and experiment on some ice climbs close to home and see if there are any cold/freezing related issues that I can sus out.

You mentioned raps being shorter in canyons. The longest rap I've toggled was the 300'er out of heaps. Have you found a length at which the rope weight makes toggling significantly more difficult?

Worth noting to anyone else that if you use an incognito/private tab when buying from the site Tom listed you can usually get them to give you a pop-up ad for a discount on your "first" purchase.

When climbing, your usual rappels will be between a half rope length 60-75 feet and a full rope length 150-165-180 feet. Heaps has a 285 foot rappel, but the Median Rappel Length in Heaps is about 40 feet.

Tangling is an annoyance, just an annoyance. Getting the stick stuck behind a bush or rock could make the resource unavailable, which might be 'highly problematic'. Remember what Yvon says: "It's not an adventure until something highly problematic occurs!"

Tom

This is part of what's motivating me to pursue this as an option outside of climbing environments. It doesn't always work but if the rappel route for a climb follows a natural funnel like a couloir I feel like I can often cut the number of required raps in half by toggling. Saves time and weight. Definitely a specialized tool that's not gonna work everywhere. But you can see why I'm interested.

Great quote too

Butchered, I assume you realize. ;-)

I realized no such thing but google has straightened me out.

Yvon's quotes:

"The word 'adventure' has just gotten overused. For me, adventure is when everything goes wrong. That's when the adventure starts."

“Real adventure is defined best as a journey from which you may not come back alive, and certainly not as the same person.”

Anyhow...I think especially for ski routes in the alps, Petzl has developed their lightweight rope systems to facilitate rappelling in the alpine.

Specifically, your proposed system is an alpine climb first, then a rappel. Two pretty different scenarios compared to just rappelling to ski a line. I think you're best served by a lightweight twin rope system for the alpine climb with no need for a pull cord.

You're not really cutting the rappels in half you're just proposing using one lead rope and a toggle/pull cord. You likely adding time having to manage a thin pull cord instead of another climbing rope. And, if you have an issue, you have only one lead rope to fix your problem (and none if its stuck).

Some good thoughts on rope systems from a feller that knows things (note his reasons for ditching the 6mm pull cord):

https://colinhaley.com/nugget-1-the-petzl-purline/

Interesting comments from him on the Espirit SAPER rope. I got my rope stuck and destroyed my 6mm Espirit when I pulled down a loose block. Ugh. Stiff cord. Could take a hunk out of your hand if you weren't careful on rappel.

These guys have been doing some amazing climbs and ski descents in AK. Cassin with skis on their backs then summitting the north peak and skiing the NWB? Wow.

https://www.wildsnow.com/30740/making-the-most-out-of-the-alaska-range/

Here's their gear list:

https://www.wildsnow.com/31254/gear-for-ski-alpinism/

Interesting thoughts on ropes.

Trip report in Alpinist:

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web21c/newswire-mike-gardner-spring-2021-alaska-trip

"The skiing on the NWB was wild; we only down climbed a total of 600 feet over the course of 15,000 feet of skiing. The upper portion was blower, and lower down we encountered blue ice hiding underneath 10 to 50cm of wet snow. At that point we were skiing with an ice tool in one hand and occasionally executing a "French transition"—a phrase introduced to us by Chantel Astorga and Nick Maestre. It means that you ski the blue ice until you lose purchase and fall, and then you self-arrest. While hanging from your tool, you put in an ice screw, clip to it, swap out your skis for crampons and start down climbing."

Yikes. No pull cord needed...just ski until you fall, then transition to down climb. That saves you weight! No wasting time with rope management...

Note: none of these folk are using a toggle release and super thin pull cord.

Interesting to ponder at any rate...

Awesome. Thanks Brian.

I'd be really interested to see the results of some thorough testing of a toggle in a properly tied upward facing stone knot in a freezing environment. Something like setting up the stone knot in the evening before a particularly hard freeze, wetting the knot a bit, and giving it a pull first thing in the morning. Could maybe even do this in a freezer with some old rope?

One ill-fated descent of a snow and ice filled Painted Arch presented us with an uncomfortable situation after (???) occurred and our toggle simply refused to pull from the stone knot with three persons vigorous pulling effort - eventually the pull cord was ripped off of the toggle, presumably leaving the stone knot in place. It's worth noting that the rope was intermittently wet and we noted frozen sections of it causing annoyance as it passed through our rappel devices. It may also worth noting that this was a cylindrical toggle, which confounds the problem further. We were forced to abandon that rope and toggle and continue on towards dreams of hot chocolate, and we never found out what caused the toggle to stick. From time to time I do wonder if the wet end of the rope froze between the time that the stone knot was tied and the pull was attempted, contributing to the (???) - probably unrelated but maybe not.

Ben