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Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Jake Freimanis, Sep 21, 2018.
Hank, Wow! You need a good scolding for that. No ice cream for you today!
Exactly this. I rappel on a steel biner in canyons, although I'm pretty sure it cost me more than $18. I have NEVER had to replace it (okay, it's only been maybe 5 years at 20-30 canyons a year) and I've gone through aluminum ones in a single canyon (Spry anyone?)
That sucker is heavy though. I can't imagine what a rack of them would weigh climbing.
PLEASE FLIP YOUR CRITR EACH USE
(and check the biner in the process)
Thats terrifying Karl, I'm on the steel main as well. A couple extra ounces between my legs has yet to bother me.
Your comment worries me! Are ATC's (tube style devices) in particular more likely to cause a core shot in a rope? Or was it just an unlucky coincidence that it happened to occur right then? I've been looking at the Critr for a while now but could never justify the (in my opinion) loss of functionality from switching away from an ATC. But if they cause core shots you'll have convinced me
Don't you mean increase in functionality? Seriously, what canyoneering-related functionality would be lost?
Well I guess this is the part where my ignorance gets put on display in front of everyone. But my thought has been that my device works fine as a descender, I've never had trouble with it from light to heavy loads. It's easy to add friction by looping it back and forth through a biner or two; and I feel comforted knowing that if something goes south and I need to climb out of a canyon in an emergency I can be belayed and easily belay others as well. In addition I can easily set up a tensioned line using the autoblock functionality if some hazard needs to be avoided with a Tyrolean traverse. Both of those are unlikely to be needed but I don't feel like I'm Losing any functionality by using it and I do feel like I gain some utility that could be useful in the event of some unlikely emergency.
I am, however, extremely inexperienced and would love to be smacked upside the head with some wisdom from you canyon veterans.
Yes. I've seen it with my own eyes, multiple times. And because all of the interaction between device and rope is happening in such a small area, they tend to slip the sheath over the core far more than "8" style devices. I'll have to dig up the thread where various folks, myself included, listed at least 8 reasons not to use "tube" style devices on skinny static (see: canyoneering) ropes.
ATC's often result in a sharper bending of the rope than Fig 8 type devices.
A core shot occurs when a sheath strand is damaged. Technically, not really a core-shot until a strand is completely cut, but...
Often a core shot begins as a gobi, where the strand is abraded and half-cut. As the gobi passes through the bends of a rappel device, it tends to get worse. Sharper bends = gets worse faster.
Once it becomes a core shot, the core shot tends to progress around the rope, as the cut ends move further and further apart. One thing I have admired about the BlueWater Canyon Pro (shhhhhh, don't tell anyone) is that it seems to resist core-shot propagation well, better than other ropes. But, sharper bends would mean faster core shot propagation.
These are all marks against an ATC for use on canyoneering-style ropes. Much less of a problem on climbing rappels, as those tend to have fewer gobi/core-shot inducing edges.
Good to know! Don't worry your secret is safe with me (and the rest of the internet). Do you know why it resists propagation well? Is it because the dyneema core moves less in relation to the sheath because of how low its elongation is? The whole sharp bends thing makes a lot of sense. I bought one of your Canyoneros and have had to cut loose sheath off the end rope 2 times so far. I'd been blaming the rope but it sounds like I'm slowly becoming the author of my own demise.
I do prefer belaying on an ATC and it is certainly lighter. That said, belaying in canyoneering is so rare that I'm comfortable doing it on the CRITR2 I'm already carrying. I don't think that's actually something the manufacturer has approved it for (? @Rapterman ) but it works at least as well as a figure 8 and you can add friction just as easily belaying as rappelling.
I'm not following you on why an ATC is easier/required for a guided rappel or traverse of some kind. Perhaps if you explain your system an alternative can be suggested. Certainly I have been involved (actually very recently) in guided rappels using a CRITR2 on both ends of the guide rope (attached to meat).
I am certainly an advocate of using tools that one knows well. Many accidents in canyoneering have occurred when people "try things" they do not understand.
I use an ATC on occasion when a canyon has few rappels or only short rappels. Think North Wash. It is small, compact, light. However, since I am trained in guide skills, I know on any trip if things go wrong on a rappel, it is going to be up to me to deal with it. Rescue skills are sooooooo much easier to execute using a modern canyoneering descender (Pirana, Critr, Sqwurel, Hoodoo). Yes, I am clever enough to figure out a work-around with an ATC, but the greater functionality of a modern device could be critical in an emergency.
Class C canyons with flowing water: Don't. Bringing an ATC to a Class C canyon is like bringing a ball point pen to a knife fight. Unless your name is Steve Ramras or Jenny West, in which case... WhatEVER! The irresistible force yields to the immovable object.
My recommendation is that you get yourself a Critr, and start learning the ins and outs of this fine tool.
Attempting to purchase the correct steel biner and getting swamped with several different options. Anyone use this:
I was prepared to spend $25-$30 and this one is $12. What's wrong with it ?
Liberty has a new keylock version of that 'biner. The one you posted is not keylock, which is prolly why it's 25% off. Liberty is not a promoted brand, so...cheaper than most. The carabiner appears to be made by Climbing Technology, a reputable Italian mfg. The main concern I'd have is whether it fits the device attachment hole.
I am a CRITR fan, is there anyway to confirm the Liberty steel HMS with the keylock would fit properly? The web site seems to lack detailed technical specs.
The Critr, ATS, Sqwurel, and Hoodoo all have basically the same carabiner connection.
There have been several new style of steel and steel reinforced biners released and we have not been able to check them for compatibility yet.
You would hope that all the biner manufacturers would make their products work with our 'collective' devices but this may not be the case.
The only sure way to know is to try them on for size.
Hopefully before you buy!
They work with the CRITR.
I purchased a mad rock steel carabiner, it was $12. Works awesome with ats, critr, hoodoo.
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Steel 'Biners now available for purchase. Limited quantities though as they have now been discontinued.