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News No ATVs in our National Parks.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bootboy, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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  2. Jason Linder

    Jason Linder

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    I know the link I'm sharing is going to be far from welcome for most, but sharing nonetheless. If you're interested, it lists a ton of references that highlight perspectives on public lands from voices seldom heard in communities like ours. Whether you agree, or are made to feel uncomfortable - I think it is always good to give others a chance to share their perspective.

    https://www.terraincognitamedia.com/features/stop-glorifying-john-muir2019
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  3. Jenny

    Jenny

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    Jason, thank you for this, "Whether you agree, or are made to feel uncomfortable - I think it is always good to give others a chance to share their perspective." I completely agree.

    One thing that I love about our canyoneering community is that generally political and religious view drop to the bottom of the pot holes as we are generally all out there to enjoy the canyon experience (whatever that is for each individual).

    On the forums? Bring it on (with respect, please)!

    My perspective is that if there is any chance of unifying this split in our grand country, listening to other's perspective is essential. It is a double win, when the speaker turns the talking stick back to the listener and they then can have a mutual exchange of conversation. Though, in my experience, we have a long way to go where it isn't a one-sided diatribe. Still, I think it is important to respectfully just listen. It feels like bridging a gap, for me.
  4. gajslk

    gajslk

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    The thing that made me uncomfortable was the assumption that white men are the only humans prone to abuse power. Examples abound all over the world and all through history that humans love to abuse power no matter what color or sex they might be. That she made an error so fundamental makes me very leery of accepting any of her other claims at face value. To veer into the realm of politics as suggested by Jenny, my opinion is that if the left really wants to win the next election they should tone down the racist, sexist diatribe and instead attempt to include white males. Innocent people generally resent being demonized because of their sex or the color of their skin. Even white males.
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  5. Flatiron

    Flatiron

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    A couple of points. First the tired canard that everyone else does it, the justification of my poor behavior by claiming others do same is completely dishonest, and not relevant. What about so and so?? is something for the political pundits on talk shows to quarrel about but doesn't fly in the real world. It does not matter. That just deflects personal conduct and responsibility. It does not matter what others do - only my words and actions alone.
    Did your parents allow you to get away with that when you did something wrong? Do you let your kids claim that nonsense? Try that line of reasoning or excusing with a cop, a judge, your boss, your coach or teacher. Try telling your wife that other guys have affairs so you can too. If I graffitti in ZNPark is it ok cause others do it too? My poor, illegal, immoral, unethical behavior is NOT justified by others who might do same.

    Secondly - So how about for this discussion if the author, or we, confine it to the USA?
    'Examples' of abuse might abound in the USA also, but the % and #'s of abuses are and have been overwhelming committed by white protestant males. ( which includes me except the protestant part ) And to in anyway try to compare the amount of abuses by sex is disingenuous at best. At best.
    As the author explains this land was not uninhabited, was not empty, was not a wilderness - until whites defined it as such. And ignored everything and everybody previous. it allows whites to have a 'clean conscience for our actions, yes? it was the home and life of millions of people for thousands of years. We white european males made those claims only after we had virtually wiped out the natives, which is and was an act of ethnic cleansing. And we doubled down by enslaving millions of non whites to accomplish this, another form of ethnic cleansing. If we want to talk about innocence I suggest we look to those 2 groups instead of claiming the false narrative that white males are now victims. And I'm being kind when I say false narrative.

    Am I 'innocent' as a white male? Only if at every turn, every moment, every chance I disavow white male supremacy. Which means all people are equal by law. Which has never ever even been remotely true in this country. We literally started this country by doing the opposite, by disenfranchising women and non whites - by law! Simply because of the belief by white males that we were superior. And we have not even remotely yet allowed them to be equals.
    More important than disavowing are my actions. Always always treat other non white's and females as equals. Most importantly I stand up to and never ever support or enable sexism, mysogyny, or racism. I stand up against any person who is, whether it be my family, friends, whoever, and especially politicians who by oath are required to treat all citizens as equals at all times.
    How can I be innocent if I vote, enable or support a politician, or any person, who is sexist, is racist?

    Jenny talks about seeing, or listening to the other side. Exactly. This Never happens. White males now and historically have never done that to women and non whites. Never. They live in our world, dominated by us, always listening to us and not being heard. And when they do speak up, or try, we dismiss it as diatribe, and claim victimhood. We can and should do much much better than that. Make that famous principle 'all men are created equal' a reality by changing it to 'all people', and then truly acting accordingly.
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  6. gajslk

    gajslk

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    Got that one covered.

    Not by me and not by my ancestors. My grandparents were immigrants. Why am I automatically guilty because of my race and sex? I'm not responsible for what other people do now, let alone for what strangers did in the past. How the heck do we come together if everybody is dragging around a sack full of grievance from a hundred or more years ago? This is a serious question, BTW. We can move forward or we can look back. We can't do both.

    I think you're living in the past. The real world is changing around us. Today's youth have very different attitudes. At the bottom, men in general are losing out to women as jobs involving physical labor disappear. At the top, it's still a corrupt boys club. You can't fix that by telling Joe Sixpack that he's guilty of oppression while he's struggling to find a decent job. If you do tell him that, you might just lose what should be a slam dunk election.

    That's exactly why I point out that what the author wrote is both racist and sexist. It's wrong no matter who does it and I'm willing to say so no matter who I offend. If we're going to have equality, we have to treat everyone equally. Everyone. You can't undo past racism. To attempt it by adopting racist policies is racist. And racism is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right is the old-fashioned saying. There's wisdom there.

    You can't. So what? Are you trying to imply that I do so? I don't. What's your point? If it's that Trump is racist, I've seen no credible evidence and I looked hard because it disturbed me and I don't like him. (Watching CNN is not research) Is he sexist? Now there's a good bet. :) But I heard Hillary make some very sexist remarks on multiple occasions. I think that she lost the election because of it. I personally couldn't bring myself to vote for her no matter how much I disliked Trump. What she said was wrong. It's still wrong and I won't support that.

    That's what I strive to do. We seem to be very much in agreement and I don't understand why you seem to be upset with what I wrote. Racism is wrong. Sexism is wrong. No matter who does it. Period. No exceptions.
  7. Downward Bound

    Downward Bound

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    No credible evidence that Trump is racist? The examples are numerous. I suggest reading his comments on Judge Gonzalo Curiel.

    For me, racism was something I lived and breathed every day for the first 18 years of my life. I was raised in an openly racist household and attended a Confederate middle and high school in Powhatan VA. They flew a Confederate battle flag right next to the U.S. flag every day. The football team was the Rebels and the school newspaper was the Condederate. No black person was ever allowed to step foot on campus. I mention this to demonstrate my familiarity with the topic.

    I’m a totally different person now and know a racist when I see one. DJT is racist.




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  8. gajslk

    gajslk

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    I did. I disagree that they were racially motivated. To gain an advantage in court? Absolutely. He put the judge in an awkward position and he did it on purpose. But that's not racism. If you can come up with a better example, I'm all ears.

    Edit to expand: Mexican isn't a race any more than Norwegian is a race. It's a heritage. And Trump questioned whether the judge's heritage might affect his judgement. Unfortunately, we live in a world where the term "racist" is used willy-nilly as a general-purpose insult any time race is mentioned. Or sometimes when it's not mentioned. It's really messed up. Most of the overt racism I see today comes from African-Americans ... the worst racism I saw growing up came from Hispanics. But there is this belief in certain quarters that only white people can be racists. I was told that to my face by a mixed-race guy who lives in the most exclusive part of Denver, drives a new Lexus, and whines about how oppressed he is. He is ever on the lookout for anything that might be a slur. And guess what? He finds them. Does that mean he lives in a racist hellhole? No, it means that you can find whatever you're looking for because human communication is by it's nature somewhat vague. He won't speak to me any more, BTW. And I'm OK with that. Sad, but OK.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  9. Jason Linder

    Jason Linder

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    I dont think everyone is generally on the same page when it comes to the idea of racism. Many times, discussions regarding racism get misconstrued into discussions about prejudice. Based on your comments above about DJT and the judge, he is actually perpetuating systematic racism in the context of stoking his supporters' prejudices to maintain power and control of the judiciary branch. What YOU "see no evidence of" from Trump himself is prejudice. Here is an article that discusses the different terms I'm referencing.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/racism-vs-prejudice-3026086

    Nowhere in the article I posted above did the author actually attack any current figures. Go back and look at it. She is just asking you to consider historical figures (John Muir, etc.) differently based on a broader context that is often overlooked and ignored with respect to indigenous communities.

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  10. gajslk

    gajslk

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    Here's a thought. Why not study people in the context of their time and culture? It's called history, and it's way out of fashion. Look at how Europeans treated each other, how the first Americans treated each other, and how the Africans treated each other. Times were violent and brutal. Europeans treated each other horribly. Europeans treated the first Americans the way they treated each other and vice versa. The African slaves that Europeans brought to the Western Hemisphere were captured and sold by other Africans. The first Americans were merciless to people outside their tribe. Rape and torture were entertainment. Tell someone who came home to find his wife raped, her eyes put out, with her ears, nose, tongue, hands, and breasts cut off, but left alive so that he has to put her out of her misery that the noble savage is merely misunderstood. Taking a historical figure and judging them by today's standard is unfair and hypocritical. Self-flagellation over what someone with your heritage did hundreds of years ago is ridiculous. Had you been born in that time and culture, you'd have been right there with them. And you would be no less human because of it.
  11. Jason Linder

    Jason Linder

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    I think and examination of both past and present is helpful. Understanding the oppressive systems from the past (like public land management and national parks) that were created by historical figures with prejudices and racist agendas can help explain why current systems are still oppressive - even though current actors demonstrate far fewer prejudices and racist ideologies.

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    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  12. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    Anyways, about ATVs in our National Parks...
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  13. Jason Linder

    Jason Linder

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  14. gajslk

    gajslk

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    The NPS is explicitly racist when it comes to hiring policy. Do you have another example? I'd love to see an example of oppression. I'm serious. Who specifically is being oppressed? Who is doing it? How exactly are they accomplishing it?
  15. Flatiron

    Flatiron

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    Couple of points. Someone replying or responding to another is not 'upset'. You use the word diatribe' to describe 'the left' talking or writing about racism. These are ways to attack and demean the person instead of responding to their words or thoughts.
    Today's youth may have diff ideas but the power in this country is held by old white males who will not relinquish it, especially to women and non whites. All data regarding wealth and power, political and economic, confirms this.

    You talk about equality but again all data proves that right now we are a completely unequal society. 1 example - our Congress should be somewhat close to the demographics of gender and race. Yet in reality not so. One party elects women around 35%, the other less than 10 %. That tells you exactly what that party thinks of women. Same %'s for minorities. One party elects close the same % in this country, the other party elects around 2-3%. And does everything they can to create laws and means to stop minorities from voting and getting elected. The unequality right now in all facets of life in this country are preserved and driven by white males.
    SCOTUS is divided exactly the same. I side has gender and racial balance, the other is 5 old white males. That's how 1 party wants it - white males in power economically, financially, legally. Preserve the unequality. So it goes. The Question is - are you for or against?
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  16. gajslk

    gajslk

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    For or against what?

    I see that for you equality means equal outcomes, not equal opportunity. By that reasoning, white guys should get equal court time in the NBA and teams should reflect the demographics of the US. Asians and Latinos are particularly under represented. The elderly are not represented at all in the NFL. Bias! People are not equal. I will never dunk a basketball and Shaq O'Niell will never be a decent gymnast. We can't all play chess like a master. Men on average rank higher on the Aspergers spectrum and those people often make great engineers. And women end up represented in engineering. It's not fair and no one can make it fair. When women decide that family is more important than work and take time off to have one, they lose their place in the race to become CEO. Women who don't are not at any great disparity with men. Men who take time off to be Mr. Mom end up losing in the race. Just because there's a difference doesn't mean there is a bias. Seeing an effect and assuming a cause is sloppy reasoning.

    The only way to ensure strict fairness is to handicap the talented. For an amusing take on what fairness of that type might mean in practice, try reading "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut. But even if you could somehow make everyone exactly equal, you can't give everyone the same life experience. The person who's Dad dies when he's young will have a different life than the person who's Dad is a raging alcoholic and beats the family. And so on. Nothing about life is fair or equal. Get over it. People should have equal rights and equal opportunities for self improvement. The rest is up to them and all you can do is offer encouragement. As soon as you start meddling with outcomes, you make a real mess of things. Affirmative Action and Welfare are good examples. If you go look at what actually happened, as opposed to what was supposed to happen, the way we implemented those made things worse. Unless you're a politician looking for a devoted voting block and/or a racist who wants to keep minorities out of the workforce ... then it was pretty successful. We destroyed the African American family and we ensured that the kids who were smart and motivated enough to get into college would be set up to fail. On my cynical days I wonder if it was intentional.
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  17. Albula Vulpes

    Albula Vulpes

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    I'm glad the ATV's are out, but can think of a couple places where an e-bike will be a sweet way to link up the shuttle.
  18. gajslk

    gajslk

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    If ATVs are legal on the streets of the state, I think they should be legal on the streets of National Parks in that state. That's consistent with how the NPS handles firearms. Doing otherwise is arbitrary and inconsistent. Why aren't they prohibiting motorcycles? 4x4s, same thing. I've seen both do major damage in other areas and motorcycles can get into more places than ATVs. It's not the vehicle that's the problem, it's the rider. That said, anyone caught going off-road in a National Park should lose their vehicle for starters. If for some reason ATVs become a problem, video cameras these days are small and easy to conceal. Problem spots could be easily monitored by a computer and the dirtbags busted. Punishing lawful riders because you don't like what unlawful riders are doing somewhere else is unfair and smacks of vindictiveness.
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  19. Ram

    Ram

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    Nailed it. Thank you!
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  20. Ram

    Ram

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    Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Colour (Canadian spelling, if you will indulge me) is irrelevant. White where white has the power. Colour where colour has the power.......It is true white has most of the power here.....I also think I will give females a pass here, with a few historical exceptions. The increase in female legislators is one of the most encouraging developments of the last several election cycles. YOU GO, GIRLS!!!
    Ram

    PS Is race even a real biological thing? We can all breed with each other. I am tired of skin pigmentation, a byproduct of isolated gene pools and adaptation to sun exposure, still being such a factor for our species. Time to grow up, humankind. "Ducking for cover!"
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
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