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New CRITR rappel device

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Rapterman, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    for me, I have Imlay ropes. It's been a while, so don't remember exactly, but wanna say 8.3 MM & 9 MM ?? Tom would obviously know what diameter ropes he sells.
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  2. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    I know a few folks using Sterling XTec. I have heard that a maximum of X rappels are recommended before retiring the rope due to strength loss from flex fatigue. I am not sure about the value of X, but believe it is < 100. Have asked Sterling to clarify and will post answer when available.
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
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  3. wsbpress

    wsbpress

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    I sometimes carry a 7.5mm technora/polyester sheath, nylon core rope with me as a backup rope (e.g. soloing). I haven't had to use it in a canyon yet but at the test crag it works fine with the right friction. It's 40 g/m and 18.3 KN. I'm currently not comfortable using it as a primary rope because I don't know what kind of durability I can expect from it.
  4. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    That's what that is. the one rate for over 4200 lb. I would never rap on an imlay 6mmfor non emergency.

    Still not sure about a single person shock load on this 6mm though.

    Also for those reading this make sure you have device you tested for ascending this line.
  5. AW~

    AW~

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    And which ascender is being used for the Sterling Xtec? These things change so fast:smuggrin:...but how many safe ascenders could there be for a 6mm technora cordage? The other collective 'experts' can chime in on it too. Its just that there is no REI store near me to find out and I didnt find anything from OutsideOnline's expert advice.
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
  6. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    My concern with rapping on Xtec is that it is 100% aramid inside and out. While technora is superior to most other aramids in terms of flex fatigue resistance, it is not invulnerable.

    While I personally think that the practical applications for rapping on 6mm cord are very limited (not trade route canyons), ideally, such a cord should have a dyneema core and an aramid cover to mitigate the problem stated above.
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  7. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    Not sure which are approved for 6mm. I tested some and used a trusted persons recommendations but not going to put that on the forum.
  8. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    We rapped the shorter raps in Pandora's with it. We were testing it and I have a friend that only runs this 6mm for nearly everything. I had an older 8mm imlay for the exit (next rap after photo). I will not be switching over to 6mm raplines and agree that though extremely strong is not ideal for rapping and wear may not show until it snaps being 100% aramid. Really interested in using it for a pullcord that would be better to rap on.

    Turned out to be an ideal rope to haul through Pandora's for short raps use and the pull at the end.
  9. AW~

    AW~

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    Thats fair enough for me, thanks.
  10. townsend

    townsend

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    .
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
  11. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    re-quote and edit from post #362 above:

    I know a few folks using Sterling XTec. I have heard that a maximum of X rappels are recommended before retiring the rope due to strength loss from flex fatigue. I am not sure about the value of X, but believe it is < 100. Have asked Sterling to clarify and will post answer when available.
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
  12. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    Was referring to ascenders which there are less options that well work.

    At 200 plus pack I can use the ATS on the high friction side on setting 2 (by the critr 2 directions, sterling left this setting out) with no issues free hang. I am more interested in a pull cord that packs better and provides a rap line thats why I was testing it. Rope was lent for pandora's

    I typically use my 8.3 imlay and critr2
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  13. CRNPRES

    CRNPRES

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    I am very interested if you here back.
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
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  14. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Loving the CRITR2. I was always between 0 and 1 on the original. Now position 1 is perfect for me.
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  15. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    Thanks for the info, everyone!
    We have a couple of concerns about the 'super skinny' rope:
    One is material- the aramid ropes are very good for personal escape lines for exiting from burning buildings
    because of their strength and heat resistance.
    The down-side: poor flex-fatigue giving these ropes a limited lifespan.
    The other concern is that canyon ropes must also serve other critical functions besides 'sliding down on':
    like climbing back up when something goes wrong....
    I am not aware of any ascender rated for rope less than 8mm.
    Agree with Bootboy that dyneema core is better construction for skinny canyon rope.
    :)
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  16. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    I feel like the use of ultra skinny cords is something that should be going on in the background and not a practice that should be brought into the mainstream for many reasons. I think it unreasonable to expect any manufacturer of descenders for normal size ropes to make any recommendations on using their devices with ropes for which they were not designed. Hence, the background discussion. If you're going to use skinny cords, you should figure it out yourself and accept the risks.
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  17. Rapterman

    Rapterman

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    As a Bluewater Ropes rep, and friend of the owner, Scott Newell, I wanted to relay his opinion on thin cords
    for canyoneering (Bluewater makes the 8mm Zion Pro, Canyon Pro Dual Sheath, and the Canyon Extreme).
    Scott: "for lower diameter rope for canyoneering 8mm is the functional limit."
    We designed the CRITR especially to accommodate and safely control 8mm to 10mm rope and for us,
    8mm is also the functional limit.
    At least until Scott tells us something different.
    Thanks everyone for the info.
    :D
    Last edited: May 19, 2016
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  18. Taylor

    Taylor

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    Bottom line: anyone using anything thinner than 8mm for a regular, working canyon rope is insane and stupid. Why cut the margins that close? So you can save a little weight in your pack? Get stronger legs. Maybe, maybe if we're talking about a multi-day expedition type trip would it be warranted to use cord that thin and then only rap on it double strand. So what do you do for the first rap in Englestead or the last rap in Jacob?? Bring 600' of the stuff?
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  19. Bootboy

    Bootboy Atwood Gear

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    To be honest the only place I see this as acceptable, scratch that, practical, is for Grand Canyon stuff where the rock is generally friendly and weight is at a premium. I wouldn't really use it for anything but clean rappels. Certainly not a working rope in difficult and anchor/pothole intensive canyons.

    Another point worth mentioning is that smaller ropes will leave deeper rope grooves as the force on the rope has a smaller contact area with the rock and will saw much more quickly. Skinnier also equals stretchier.
    Rapterman, townsend and Taylor like this.
  20. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    Here's what Sterling said:

    Sterling originally designed XTEC in 2007 for use in certain compact rescue/evac systems; one such system that has evolved is the PDQ™ - Tower Emergency Descent System (The PDQ is an emergency escape and rescue system for use in Tower, Wind Energy, and other work-at-height environments) that is 3rd party certified by Underwriters Laboratories to ANSI Z359.4-2013.

    We don't know of any standard to which we could properly "certify" XTEC as a life-safety type (rappel) rope outside of the aforementioned system, so Sterling does not promote it as one.

    If canyoneers might just happen to be rappelling on Sterling’s 6mm XTEC, we wish to inform them that:
    1. it was never designed for multiple rappel scenarios so we simply do not have any "# of rappels before retirement" type data to offer at this time
    2. the knotted strength when brand new is GREATLY reduced from the published Minimum Breaking Strength of 22 kN down to about 11 kN
    3. this cord should never be used in any rappel system that has not been thoroughly vetted by expert users with a very high understanding of the friction requirements and safety limitations specific to this small diameter specialty cord
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
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