Names etc.... was stirring the pot...

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Tom Jones" <ratagonia@> wrote:

Mr. K is not well-known for the careful application of logic.

> Since his naming conventions are based sometimes on geography and > sometimes on the local names he discovers in his travels and talks > with locals, isn't that "logical"? Maybe a tich more logical that > naming a canyon "stubbed toe canyon" after stubbing your toe then > expecting local folks, and map readers, to understand where that > canyon is.

Just a little exercise for fun. Lets say a climber, pretty well known for the many first ascents he puts up, is hanging out at the crag. Lets call him BDC. Everyone around has great respect for him and the many routes, in many areas are known by all the locals and seversal Internet groups and blogs. Everyone calls the routes by the name he gave them. As it should be, methinks. Some of the names are pretty clever, based on an event during the climb. The guy is smart and know for his great wit.

One day, a fella shows him a new guidebook, by a famed author. BDC thinks great!! Let the info flow! He checks it out and sees some of his first ascent routes. Why look at that? One has been renamed the "2nd Dihedral west of the splitter crack on the east side of the 3rd Buttress!! Others too have new geographical names. BDC is besides himself. He thinks "Now why didn't I think of that?? It is so much better naming after the location!! Others can find it easier!!" BDC makes sure to let everyone of the locals and the folks following the blogs know that he endorses the new name for its utility and every one lives happily ever after. ;-)



> Metric: since most of the free world (and non-free for that matter) > use the metric system, isn't it "logical" that he apply it?

What WAS logical is that he started to use both miles and metric for his road descriptions. Using metric distances only on roads with mile markers only?????...I will say he sticks to his guns. On another note, the Hole in the Rock Road went metric mile markers

> "Foto" is short for Photo. He applies his version of that spelling > constitantly. Its phonetic. Isn't that "logical"?

I love the quirks actually. Short for? Saves one letter. Every little bit helps?

I heard he just enjoyed Sweden during his travels, despite the lack of high mountains and deep canyons...;-) Foto = Photo in Swedish. Jonas > "Foto" is short for Photo. He applies his version of that spelling

> constitantly. Its phonetic. Isn't that "logical"?



I love the quirks actually. Short for? Saves one letter. Every little

bit helps?









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--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote: > Some of the names are pretty clever, based on an event during the > climb.

Nah, not usually (trying to think of one, can't). Truth be told, the bulk of them are song lyrics, puns or plays on words, quotes, etc.

> One has been renamed the "2nd Dihedral west of the splitter crack > on the east side of the 3rd Buttress!! Others too have new > geographical names.

Which doesn't account for my new route, the second face climb left of the major west facing dihedral in the east facing sub summit of the north ridge. Now, that's a classic.

It is one difference between climbing and canyoning, though. Most canyon routes follow canyons. Some climbs, well, what they follow sometimes defies logic. From a geography point of view, its much easier to describe a drainage system in terms of its map names, I'd think.

Many climbing route names use orientation and named features. East Butttess of Middle Cathedral. East Face of Mt. Whitney. East Ridge of the Grand Teton. Its mostly small and insignificant "practise" areas which garner more "groovy" route names, not based on geography. Especially were route density doesn't make geographic references apropros.

-Brian in SLC

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:
Some of the names are pretty clever, based on an event during the
climb.
Nah, not usually (trying to think of one, can't). Truth be told, > the bulk of them are song lyrics, puns or plays on words, quotes, > etc.

I bet there is some fun ones. I would NEVER presume to call any of them silly, even if they don't follow geography. I never got that. The need to name a canyon for its location, when you give the location and access route in the beta? Love to hear some of the names youtagged lines with. Bet they are fun.


One has been renamed the "2nd Dihedral west of the splitter crack
on the east side of the 3rd Buttress!! Others too have new
geographical names.
Which doesn't account for my new route, the second face climb left > of the major west facing dihedral in the east facing sub summit of > the north ridge. Now, that's a classic.

LOL! Classic indeed

> It is one difference between climbing and canyoning, though. Most > canyon routes follow canyons. Some climbs, well, what they follow > sometimes defies logic. From a geography point of view, its much > easier to describe a drainage system in terms of its map names, I'd > think.

Yeah, I agree that it might be accurate, but often NOT easy. I love the "Middle Fork of the South Fork of Poison Springs." A clear and easy way to help one find the canyon AND only 9 words needed in the name! Slideanide BTW. Or the "Middle Fork of the West Fork of Butler Canyon." Another 9 word winner. Shenanigans BTW. What does Butler have? Five major and several smaller forks in it? Still love the Mile marker canyons. What does it say when a fella knows a ton of people are calling a system Leprechaun AND that it has some longer term local history and he renames it 28.4 anyway. And then they change the mile markers and he is pissed at having to change it to 28.2 or something? It says to me that he is hell bent on "BEING THE GUY" who names everything. Not enough that he gets to name more than anyone else and rightfully so. But, but, but wait!! He names it 28.2? That is based on "MILES!!!" Where is the logic? Not consistent with his metric system theme? Shouldn't it be named 45.1???? Now that would be logical, or at least in keeping....not serious, of course. Just having fun, but kinda makes the point that standardizing by any system doesn't cover all the bases. I vote for having a little fun.

> Many climbing route names use orientation and named features. East > Butttess of Middle Cathedral. East Face of Mt. Whitney. East Ridge > of the Grand Teton. Its mostly small and insignificant "practise" > areas which garner more "groovy" route names, not based on > geography. Especially were route density doesn't make geographic references apropros.

Largely but not entirely true. Fishhook Arete on Russell. How many aretes on Temple Crag? Half a dozen? Swiss Arete on Sill. Hummingbird on Logan, Was there ever a humming bird up that high? Anyway, more with geography than fancy and it works in the mountains where the thing stands right out there staring at you. Ram

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote: > I bet there is some fun ones. I would NEVER presume to call any of > them silly, even if they don't follow geography.

Ahh. Some of them are downright dumb (!). And only make sense to me.

> What does it say when a fella knows a ton of people > are calling a system Leprechaun AND that it has some longer term local > history and he renames it 28.4 anyway. And then they change the mile > markers and he is pissed at having to change it to 28.2 or something? > It says to me that he is hell bent on "BEING THE GUY" who names > everything.

Maybe he, ahem, applied a little bit of logic...ha ha. I mean, really, if you were SAR, and didn't know whatever name applied, wouldn't it make sense to reference the mile markers? With rescues in the Irish area canyons, this has been a problem in the past. Mile marker references make it pretty easy...

> Hummingbird > on Logan, Was there ever a humming bird up that high?

Geez, you disappoint me. Get thee a copy of fiddy classics and read the story. In short, yeah, according to them they named the ridge after seeing a hummingbird up high. 'Round the corner from that route, we saw a few birds up fairly high. Always wondered what the poor little buggers were doing there. Can't have lasted too long. Anyhow, when you look at the route, its not an obvious ie major ridgeline on the mountain, which has a fairly complex gob of ridges running down here and there, especially on that side.

A side issue is how can a climb be a classic when its only been done once? Kinda funny.

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
Hummingbird
on Logan, Was there ever a humming bird up that high?
Geez, you disappoint me. Get thee a copy of fiddy classics and read > the story.

Here, I'll help a brother out...

http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1966/EvansS_LoganMum1966_ 8-18.pdf#search="Steck Hummingbird"

On the 17th, we cut our ties with Base, haul up the fixed lines and commit ourselves to the ridge. As last man I wait at the Prow while Coale ascends the fixed line. Suddenly I am aware of a whirring sound . . . a falling rock! Instinctively I press myself close to the cliff, but the sound persists and as I turn to investigate I notice a tiny hummingbird hovering over my bright red pack, darting in and then retreating, with that delightful grace peculiar to its kind. Is he merely curious or does he wish to stop and rest awhile on something other than rock and ice? In a moment he has flown away, consuming his fuel supply at a rate perhaps 30 times my own. My little friend, you and I are both intruders on this lifeless ridge; you have been blown off course by chance, while I, owing to forces I do not fully comprehend have come voluntarily - like a moth to a flame - attracted by the elemental dynamism of the mountains. We are now both engaged in a struggle with our environment, though mine appears the more absurd I wonder which of us is the better prepared to meet the trials to come? Somehow, I think you may even reach the world of green things by nightfall . . . In any case I shall be thinking of you.

FYI, you can search all but the most recent AAJ on line through the link above. Whoo hoo (although, I still think folks should be a member...).

Cheers,

-Brian in SLC

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:
I bet there is some fun ones. I would NEVER presume to call any of
them silly, even if they don't follow geography.
Ahh. Some of them are downright dumb (!). And only make sense to > me.

Guess I will have to look on the net, which makes your secrets safe, unless I inspire others to look too, that is. ;-)


What does it say when a fella knows a ton of people
are calling a system Leprechaun AND that it has some longer term > local
history and he renames it 28.4 anyway. And then they change the > mile
markers and he is pissed at having to change it to 28.2 or > something?
It says to me that he is hell bent on "BEING THE GUY" who names
everything.
Maybe he, ahem, applied a little bit of logic...ha ha. I mean, > really, if you were SAR, and didn't know whatever name applied, > wouldn't it make sense to reference the mile markers? With rescues > in the Irish area canyons, this has been a problem in the past. > Mile marker references make it pretty easy...

That's right! I should have been thinking altruistically. MK's major priority! Around the camp I asked him..."Are you concerned about exposing all these really hard canyons to the public?" Reply.."Oh no, my lawyer said..." I interrupt, I'm good at that....."No, Mike, that is not what I mean, would it bother you personally?" He looks at me quizzically..... Maybe the logic is.....I don't have to be concerned, because I named the canyons after mile markers, thus making it safer for all. He claims to make 14G a year. How can he afford a lawyer? The boy should charge more for his book. People would pay. He ain't buyin it.


Hummingbird
on Logan, Was there ever a humming bird up that high?
Geez, you disappoint me. Get thee a copy of fiddy classics and read > the story.

Thanx. That was fun and nice writing too. Yeah, classic with only one ascent. R

"Yeah, classic with only one ascent."

I've pieced together "new" summits routes in Zion that I felt were delightful and "classic" but I'm certain others would find them unbearably dirty, terrifying, and largely unpleasant.

My first ascent 'classic' might be your second ascent nightmare.

CP



--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@> wrote:

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:
> I bet there is some fun ones. I would NEVER presume to call any of
> them silly, even if they don't follow geography.

Ahh. Some of them are downright dumb (!). And only make sense to
me.
> Guess I will have to look on the net, which makes your secrets safe, > unless I inspire others to look too, that is. ;-)

> What does it say when a fella knows a ton of people
> are calling a system Leprechaun AND that it has some longer term
local
> history and he renames it 28.4 anyway. And then they change the
mile
> markers and he is pissed at having to change it to 28.2 or
something?
> It says to me that he is hell bent on "BEING THE GUY" who names
> everything.

Maybe he, ahem, applied a little bit of logic...ha ha. I mean,
really, if you were SAR, and didn't know whatever name applied,
wouldn't it make sense to reference the mile markers? With rescues
in the Irish area canyons, this has been a problem in the past.
Mile marker references make it pretty easy...
That's right! I should have been thinking altruistically. MK's major > priority! Around the camp I asked him..."Are you concerned about > exposing all these really hard canyons to the public?" Reply.."Oh no, > my lawyer said..." I interrupt, I'm good at that....."No, Mike, that > is not what I mean, would it bother you personally?" He looks at me > quizzically..... Maybe the logic is.....I don't have to be concerned, > because I named the canyons after mile markers, thus making it safer > for all. He claims to make 14G a year. How can he afford a lawyer? The > boy should charge more for his book. People would pay. He ain't buyin it.

> Hummingbird
> on Logan, Was there ever a humming bird up that high?

Geez, you disappoint me. Get thee a copy of fiddy classics and read
the story.
Thanx. That was fun and nice writing too. Yeah, classic with only one > ascent. > R >

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Courtney" <cp0915@...> wrote:
"Yeah, classic with only one ascent."
I've pieced together "new" summits routes in Zion that I felt were > delightful and "classic" but I'm certain others would find them > unbearably dirty, terrifying, and largely unpleasant. > My first ascent 'classic' might be your second ascent nightmare. > CP

HA HA! Way to sell the new book there Courtney!! Yes there IS such a thing as a "Classic Nightmare." LOL! Ya gotta appreciate anything, anybody or any place that does what it does, at the highest levels...or in this case the lowest. Everyone is also, entitled to there own erroneous opinion. Hee hee. I think there is a canyon in Cali called Halls, that some call "Hell's," for this very reason. Randi?

And speaking of Hall Canyon, Rick and Mike went through it a month back. Tried to dayhike it (took Randi 3 days, as I recall, due to extreme brush), but ended up in a cold bivy. They said the canyon was a bit on the sucky side.

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Courtney" <cp0915@> wrote:

"Yeah, classic with only one ascent."

I've pieced together "new" summits routes in Zion that I felt were
delightful and "classic" but I'm certain others would find them
unbearably dirty, terrifying, and largely unpleasant.
My first ascent 'classic' might be your second ascent nightmare.
CP
HA HA! Way to sell the new book there Courtney!! Yes there IS such a > thing as a "Classic Nightmare." LOL! Ya gotta appreciate anything, > anybody or any place that does what it does, at the highest > levels...or in this case the lowest. Everyone is also, entitled to > there own erroneous opinion. Hee hee. > I think there is a canyon in Cali called Halls, that some call > "Hell's," for this very reason. Randi? >

I'm reminded of years ago trying to find a pictograph that Kelsey mentioned in one of his books, not only was the Canyon the picto not where he said it was, but the mile marker on I70 was the wrong mileage and you could see where others had turned off at the same marker as were tire tracks all leading somewhere...but not to the canyon the picto is in....finally years later accidentally stumbled on the pictograph Larry

adkramoo wrote:
> --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com>, > "beadysee" <beadysee@...> wrote: >
> --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons%40yahoogroups.com>, > "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote: >
I bet there is some fun ones. I would NEVER presume to call any of >
them silly, even if they don't follow geography. >
> Ahh. Some of them are downright dumb (!). And only make sense to > > me.
Guess I will have to look on the net, which makes your secrets safe, > unless I inspire others to look too, that is. ;-)

What does it say when a fella knows a ton of people >
are calling a system Leprechaun AND that it has some longer term > > local >
history and he renames it 28.4 anyway. And then they change the > > mile >
markers and he is pissed at having to change it to 28.2 or > > something? >
It says to me that he is hell bent on "BEING THE GUY" who names >
everything. >
> Maybe he, ahem, applied a little bit of logic...ha ha. I mean, > > really, if you were SAR, and didn't know whatever name applied, > > wouldn't it make sense to reference the mile markers? With rescues > > in the Irish area canyons, this has been a problem in the past. > > Mile marker references make it pretty easy...

Larry, I have four or five Kelsey books and I enjoy them. You're hitting on a very good point here which segways to accuracy of beta. Kelsey's beta can be suspect and I long ago decided to be extra careful when descending canyons if I only have Kelsey beta. For example, as a Grand Canyon fan, you've probably been down Rider Canyon at mile 17. It has extremely scenic narrows. Kelsey says that you hit a 20' fall that must be rappelled or you turn around and exit to the rim. In reality, there is a bypass on a downcanyon left bench that allows non-technical passage to the finest part of the canyon! But I appreciate his books and the adventure they sometimes bring. Just pad the rope lengths to keep adventure from becoming epic

Rich

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Larry Lorusso <larry@...> wrote:
I'm reminded of years ago trying to find a pictograph that Kelsey > mentioned in one of his books, not only was the Canyon the picto not > where he said it was, but the mile marker on I70 was the wrong mileage > and you could see where others had turned off at the same marker as were > tire tracks all leading somewhere...but not to the canyon the picto is > in....finally years later accidentally stumbled on the pictograph > Larry
adkramoo wrote:


--- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons% 40yahoogroups.com>,
"beadysee" <beadysee@> wrote:

> > --- In Yahoo Canyons Group <mailto:canyons% 40yahoogroups.com>,
"adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:

I bet there is some fun ones. I would NEVER presume to call any of

them silly, even if they don't follow geography.

> > Ahh. Some of them are downright dumb (!). And only make sense to
> me.

Guess I will have to look on the net, which makes your secrets safe,
unless I inspire others to look too, that is. ;-)


What does it say when a fella knows a ton of people

are calling a system Leprechaun AND that it has some longer term
> local

history and he renames it 28.4 anyway. And then they change the
> mile

markers and he is pissed at having to change it to 28.2 or
> something?

It says to me that he is hell bent on "BEING THE GUY" who names

everything.

> > Maybe he, ahem, applied a little bit of logic...ha ha. I mean,
> really, if you were SAR, and didn't know whatever name applied,
> wouldn't it make sense to reference the mile markers? With rescues
> in the Irish area canyons, this has been a problem in the past.
> Mile marker references make it pretty easy...

>