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More bolts in Mystery??

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Tom Jones, Jul 31, 2001.

  1. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Did Mystery in Zion this weekend. I was surprised to see a new Fixe bolt at one of the small drops in the main canyon before the continuous narrows section.

    (Where exactly? Before the big water streak, the canyoneer drops into a 10 foot wide corridor via some large logs. 30 feet further is a 20 foot drop. There is a trail around both sections, but it leads to a sandy, not very pleasant downclimbing section.)

    I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the bolt, leaving the stud. There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone next to the bolt. But the obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter ponderosa pine log 30 feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the past, but this time I left a green sling and rapid link.

    While I thank whomever for doing the public service time of placing a bolt at this drop, given the very obvious natural anchor just 30 feet away, I believe this effort was mis-spent. Yes, in Mystery, people should be encouraged to rappel these short drops, rather than further eroding the landscape by cutting around on the small trails. I'm thinking a prominent sling on the log does the job just fine - and I recommend that people do the rappel (though a little more time consuming) rather than take the trail.

    (Hmmm. Kinda strange, that shoe being on the other foot...)

    Tom

    ps. send me your address if you want your hanger back. tom@jrat.com
  2. M

    M Guest

    Hi my name is Matt I am new here in the group. I have spent my summers in southern utah for 15 years now. i love the canyons we have to offer and the adventures around every corner. Having read some archived messages the one about a new bolt in mystery canyon struck me odd. 'I am at a loss for words.. can someone explain this wilderness ethics.. is it safety? is it leave no trace? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??

    "I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the bolt, leaving the stud. There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone next to the bolt. But the obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter ponderosa pine log 30 feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the past, but this time I left a green sling and rapid link."

    Instead of one bolt the size of a silver dollar, now when i go down mystery i have to look at 1. a removed bolt with stud protruding 2. thirty feet of webbing and a rapid link. If a good bolt is in place why remove it? you will just leave a hole or a bolt core sitting there to rip the next guys brand new expensive 5.10 canyoning shoes (chuckles at previous thread).

    I am all for not hurting the canyons. i make my living as a river guide. i know about leave no trace. i could understand if you were walking up on some stupidhead getting his drill out to place the bolt and kicking his ass down the next 5 rappells. (a little activism never hurts) but to remove the bolt to place 30' webbing..

    I dont want to accuse or blame anyone but i dont understand the logic. was the bolt bad? (safey concerns) was it an eye sore? (all bolts are) Honestly i think i would have more problems with a long run of webbing.

    if i am wrong please let me know.. Matt Johnson
  3. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    Using a tree 30' back from the edge does not leave a 30' piece of webbing. I left a 10' piece of 9/16" supertape green, with a 5/16" Rapide.

    Actually removing a Fixe Stud is quite a task requiring a substantial set of tools, and even then success is not guaranteed. The stud is largely unnoticeable, and is to the side, where it will probably not impale the unwary canyoneer, Canyoneer or Waffle Trainer.

    Right? Wrong? These are personal choices.

    Tom

    --- In canyons@y..., "M" <worldwideguide@h...> wrote: > Hi my name is Matt I am new here in the group. I have spent my > summers in southern utah for 15 years now. i love the canyons we have > to offer and the adventures around every corner. Having read some > archived messages the one about a new bolt in mystery canyon struck > me odd. > 'I am at a loss for words.. can someone explain this wilderness > ethics.. is it safety? is it leave no trace? > WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??
    "I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the bolt, leaving the stud. > There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone next to the bolt. But the > obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter ponderosa pine log 30 > feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the past, but this time I > left a green sling and rapid link."
    Instead of one bolt the size of a silver dollar, now when i go down > mystery i have to look at 1. a removed bolt with stud protruding 2. > thirty feet of webbing and a rapid link. If a good bolt is in place > why remove it? you will just leave a hole or a bolt core sitting > there to rip the next guys brand new expensive 5.10 canyoning shoes > (chuckles at previous thread).
    I am all for not hurting the canyons. i make my living as a river > guide. i know about leave no trace. i could understand if you were > walking up on some stupidhead getting his drill out to place the bolt > and kicking his ass down the next 5 rappells. (a little activism > never hurts) but to remove the bolt to place 30' webbing..
    I dont want to accuse or blame anyone but i dont understand the > logic. was the bolt bad? (safey concerns) was it an eye sore? (all > bolts are) Honestly i think i would have more problems with a long > run of webbing.
    if i am wrong please let me know.. > Matt Johnson
  4. Steve Mann

    Steve Mann Guest

    Matt (#3),

    Yes, you must be new here. I have 2591 message in my canyoneering folder since Jan 1 and I'd guess 50% of them argue bolting ethics issues. My summary of the debate is that there is no "right" answer. On one side you have what has been sarcastically labeled the CBP (canyon bolt police) who remove all bolts anywhere in most canyons and who seem to espouse the ethic that it would be better to die in a keeper pothole than drill. On the other side you have a group that descends all canyons at any cost (read: environmental damage be damned) and bolt if it suits you or makes the descend easier. (Hopefully few of the later on this forum.)

    On another dimension of the debate there is the idea that natural anchors are always better vs. the idea that bolts are better because they don't kill trees (by "ringing" them where the webbing attaches), keep people from eroding the terrain in canyons trying to bypass unbolted drops, and don't leave unsightly webbing in the canyons.

    There is a canyoneering document on the ACA sit that attempts to outline a recommended policy for natural anchors vs bolts, but there will never be unanimous agreement from those on this forum--it is just too divisive an issue. Still I'd recommend referring to that document to get a flavor of the most widely accepted view of the issue. If you are really dedicated to understanding the context of the issue on the forum, you will want to check the message archives for regular spirited debate on these issues.

    (You might also be interested to know that Tom, who sent the Mystery Canyon bolt message, is usually not anti-bolt, hence the reference to the shoe being on the other foot. )

    Steve

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "M" worldwideguide@hotmail.com> To: <Yahoo Canyons Group> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 8:36 AM Subject: [canyons group] RE: more bolts in Mystery??

    > Hi my name is Matt I am new here in the group. I have spent my > summers in southern utah for 15 years now. i love the canyons we have > to offer and the adventures around every corner. Having read some > archived messages the one about a new bolt in mystery canyon struck > me odd. > 'I am at a loss for words.. can someone explain this wilderness > ethics.. is it safety? is it leave no trace? > WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??
    "I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the bolt, leaving the stud. > There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone next to the bolt. But the > obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter ponderosa pine log 30 > feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the past, but this time I > left a green sling and rapid link."
    Instead of one bolt the size of a silver dollar, now when i go down > mystery i have to look at 1. a removed bolt with stud protruding 2. > thirty feet of webbing and a rapid link. If a good bolt is in place > why remove it? you will just leave a hole or a bolt core sitting > there to rip the next guys brand new expensive 5.10 canyoning shoes > (chuckles at previous thread).
    I am all for not hurting the canyons. i make my living as a river > guide. i know about leave no trace. i could understand if you were > walking up on some stupidhead getting his drill out to place the bolt > and kicking his ass down the next 5 rappells. (a little activism > never hurts) but to remove the bolt to place 30' webbing..
    I dont want to accuse or blame anyone but i dont understand the > logic. was the bolt bad? (safey concerns) was it an eye sore? (all > bolts are) Honestly i think i would have more problems with a long > run of webbing.
    if i am wrong please let me know.. > Matt Johnson

    > Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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    >
  5. llana kanka

    llana kanka Guest

    There's a way to get it all down and still keep your macrame just over the edge. You can rig an ultra-long retrievable webbing with an additional loop on the rappel-rope side (NOT the accessory cord-side). Use a butterfly knot for this extra loop. When you've tied your macrame, clip the extra loop into the rappel rope below the rings (or biners). When finished with the rappel, pull the macrame. It will release from the rings but won't pull through the biner on the extra loop so when you pull down on your ropes the webbing automatically pulls back around the tree and falls at your feet (hopefully...if the snag Gods are being kind). The nice things about it is that you don't leave any webbing behind and you don't make rope scars on the edge, even if your anchor is 10 yards back from the edge.

    D. Black



    --- Tom Jones tom@jrat.com> wrote: > Using a tree 30' back from the edge does not leave a > 30' piece of > webbing. I left a 10' piece of 9/16" supertape > green, with a 5/16" > Rapide.
    Actually removing a Fixe Stud is quite a task > requiring a substantial > set of tools, and even then success is not > guaranteed. The stud is > largely unnoticeable, and is to the side, where it > will probably not > impale the unwary canyoneer, Canyoneer or Waffle > Trainer.
    Right? Wrong? These are personal choices.
    Tom
    --- In canyons@y..., "M" <worldwideguide@h...
    wrote:
    Hi my name is Matt I am new here in the group. I > have spent my
    summers in southern utah for 15 years now. i love > the canyons we > have
    to offer and the adventures around every corner. > Having read some
    archived messages the one about a new bolt in > mystery canyon struck
    me odd.
    'I am at a loss for words.. can someone explain > this wilderness
    ethics.. is it safety? is it leave no trace?
    WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??

    "I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the > bolt, leaving the > stud.
    There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone next > to the bolt. But > the
    obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter > ponderosa pine log 30
    feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the past, > but this time I
    left a green sling and rapid link."

    Instead of one bolt the size of a silver dollar, > now when i go down
    mystery i have to look at 1. a removed bolt with > stud protruding 2.
    thirty feet of webbing and a rapid link. If a good > bolt is in place
    why remove it? you will just leave a hole or a > bolt core sitting
    there to rip the next guys brand new expensive > 5.10 canyoning shoes
    (chuckles at previous thread).

    I am all for not hurting the canyons. i make my > living as a river
    guide. i know about leave no trace. i could > understand if you were
    walking up on some stupidhead getting his drill > out to place the > bolt
    and kicking his ass down the next 5 rappells. (a > little activism
    never hurts) but to remove the bolt to place 30' > webbing..

    I dont want to accuse or blame anyone but i dont > understand the
    logic. was the bolt bad? (safey concerns) was it > an eye sore? (all
    bolts are) Honestly i think i would have more > problems with a long
    run of webbing.

    if i am wrong please let me know..
    Matt Johnson


    Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
  6. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    In this case, NOT leaving a small piece of webbing (to flag the anchor) LED to placement of an unnecessary bolt.

    So, this time I left a discreet piece of webbing, visible enough to flag the anchor without being too obnoxious.

    (And carried off the hanger and nut, which some will judge obnoxious).

    Macrame AND retrievable webbing, on the SAME anchor? Hmmmm. In this case, seems like the straight macrame would be the way to go since the biggest dangers are: a. catching the ring on the big, messy tree or b. big friction pulling the rope straight over the tree.

    Admittedly, nice smooth canyon floor, ideal conditions, and a not-too- bad climb around if you forget to pull the safety biner (not that I did, just, you know, IF...)

    Tom

    --- In canyons@y..., llana kanka <icegydbuk@y...> wrote: > There's a way to get it all down and still keep your > macrame just over the edge. You can rig an ultra-long > retrievable webbing with an additional loop on the > rappel-rope side (NOT the accessory cord-side). Use a > butterfly knot for this extra loop. When you've tied > your macrame, clip the extra loop into the rappel rope > below the rings (or biners). When finished with the > rappel, pull the macrame. It will release from the > rings but won't pull through the biner on the extra > loop so when you pull down on your ropes the webbing > automatically pulls back around the tree and falls at > your feet (hopefully...if the snag Gods are being > kind). The nice things about it is that you don't > leave any webbing behind and you don't make rope scars > on the edge, even if your anchor is 10 yards back from > the edge.
    D. Black

    --- Tom Jones <tom@j...> wrote:
    Using a tree 30' back from the edge does not leave a
    30' piece of
    webbing. I left a 10' piece of 9/16" supertape
    green, with a 5/16"
    Rapide.

    Actually removing a Fixe Stud is quite a task
    requiring a substantial
    set of tools, and even then success is not
    guaranteed. The stud is
    largely unnoticeable, and is to the side, where it
    will probably not
    impale the unwary canyoneer, Canyoneer or Waffle
    Trainer.

    Right? Wrong? These are personal choices.

    Tom

    --- In canyons@y..., "M" <worldwideguide@h...
    > wrote:
    > Hi my name is Matt I am new here in the group. I
    have spent my
    > summers in southern utah for 15 years now. i love
    the canyons we
    have
    > to offer and the adventures around every corner.
    Having read some
    > archived messages the one about a new bolt in
    mystery canyon struck
    > me odd.
    > 'I am at a loss for words.. can someone explain
    this wilderness
    > ethics.. is it safety? is it leave no trace?
    > WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??


    "I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the
    bolt, leaving the
    stud.
    > There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone next
    to the bolt. But
    the
    > obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter
    ponderosa pine log 30
    > feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the past,
    but this time I
    > left a green sling and rapid link."


    Instead of one bolt the size of a silver dollar,
    now when i go down
    > mystery i have to look at 1. a removed bolt with
    stud protruding 2.
    > thirty feet of webbing and a rapid link. If a good
    bolt is in place
    > why remove it? you will just leave a hole or a
    bolt core sitting
    > there to rip the next guys brand new expensive
    5.10 canyoning shoes
    > (chuckles at previous thread).


    I am all for not hurting the canyons. i make my
    living as a river
    > guide. i know about leave no trace. i could
    understand if you were
    > walking up on some stupidhead getting his drill
    out to place the
    bolt
    > and kicking his ass down the next 5 rappells. (a
    little activism
    > never hurts) but to remove the bolt to place 30'
    webbing..


    I dont want to accuse or blame anyone but i dont
    understand the
    > logic. was the bolt bad? (safey concerns) was it
    an eye sore? (all
    > bolts are) Honestly i think i would have more
    problems with a long
    > run of webbing.


    if i am wrong please let me know..
    > Matt Johnson


    > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
  7. llana kanka

    llana kanka Guest

    Tom,

    On that retrievable web + macrame, as long as all the web knots are on the rappel rope-side and the extra loop is clipped into the right place, the web will usually pull right around the tree without a problem unless there's a bunch of junk in the way (that messy tree you were talking about). If the ring or web does happen to catch, you lose the web but not the rope (as opposed to a macrame directly around the tree. If that catches, you have a stuck rope...). I think I'm this year's stuck-rope poster child, which is the reason for the this retrieveable web/macrame combo. With this set-up there's no pulling the rope around the tree.

    If there's a fairly direct shot from the tree to the ground, like you I would rather macrame it directly to the tree. This is just a means of setting up a retrievable station closer to the edge when your anchor is some distance behind it. It seems quite reliable and no less safe than any other macrame set-up, since the retrievable web isn't going anywhere unless you pull your macrame out.

    I agree with you totally about leaving the webbing to flag the anchor. Even though you took the hanger & nut, I think what you did was an exercise in reasonable canyon ethics because you flagged the alternative.

    --- Tom Jones tom@jrat.com> wrote: > In this case, NOT leaving a small piece of webbing > (to flag the > anchor) LED to placement of an unnecessary bolt.
    So, this time I left a discreet piece of webbing, > visible enough to > flag the anchor without being too obnoxious.
    (And carried off the hanger and nut, which some will > judge obnoxious).
    Macrame AND retrievable webbing, on the SAME anchor? > Hmmmm. In this > case, seems like the straight macrame would be the > way to go since > the biggest dangers are: a. catching the ring on the > big, messy tree > or b. big friction pulling the rope straight over > the tree.
    Admittedly, nice smooth canyon floor, ideal > conditions, and a not-too- > bad climb around if you forget to pull the safety > biner (not that I > did, just, you know, IF...)
    Tom
    > --- In canyons@y..., llana kanka <icegydbuk@y...
    wrote:
    There's a way to get it all down and still keep > your
    macrame just over the edge. You can rig an > ultra-long
    retrievable webbing with an additional loop on the
    rappel-rope side (NOT the accessory cord-side). > Use a
    butterfly knot for this extra loop. When you've > tied
    your macrame, clip the extra loop into the rappel > rope
    below the rings (or biners). When finished with > the
    rappel, pull the macrame. It will release from the
    rings but won't pull through the biner on the > extra
    loop so when you pull down on your ropes the > webbing
    automatically pulls back around the tree and falls > at
    your feet (hopefully...if the snag Gods are being
    kind). The nice things about it is that you don't
    leave any webbing behind and you don't make rope > scars
    on the edge, even if your anchor is 10 yards back > from
    the edge.

    D. Black



    --- Tom Jones <tom@j...> wrote:
    > Using a tree 30' back from the edge does not > leave a
    > 30' piece of
    > webbing. I left a 10' piece of 9/16" supertape
    > green, with a 5/16"
    > Rapide.


    Actually removing a Fixe Stud is quite a task
    > requiring a substantial
    > set of tools, and even then success is not
    > guaranteed. The stud is
    > largely unnoticeable, and is to the side, where > it
    > will probably not
    > impale the unwary canyoneer, Canyoneer or Waffle
    > Trainer.


    Right? Wrong? These are personal choices.


    Tom


    --- In canyons@y..., "M" <worldwideguide@h...

    wrote:

    Hi my name is Matt I am new here in the group. > I
    > have spent my

    summers in southern utah for 15 years now. i > love
    > the canyons we
    > have

    to offer and the adventures around every > corner.
    > Having read some

    archived messages the one about a new bolt in
    > mystery canyon struck

    me odd.

    'I am at a loss for words.. can someone > explain
    > this wilderness

    ethics.. is it safety? is it leave no trace?

    WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??



    "I removed the hanger, nut and sling from the
    > bolt, leaving the
    > stud.

    There is a usable-though-awkward chockstone > next
    > to the bolt. But
    > the

    obvious natural anchor is the 4 foot diameter
    > ponderosa pine log 30

    feet up-canyon. I have macreme'd it in the > past,
    > but this time I

    left a green sling and rapid link."



    Instead of one bolt the size of a silver > dollar,
    > now when i go down

    mystery i have to look at 1. a removed bolt > with
    > stud protruding 2.

    thirty feet of webbing and a rapid link. If a > good
    > bolt is in place

    why remove it? you will just leave a hole or a
    > bolt core sitting

    there to rip the next guys brand new expensive
    > 5.10 canyoning shoes

    (chuckles at previous thread).



    I am all for not hurting the canyons. i make > my
    > living as a river

    guide. i know about leave no trace. i could
    > understand if you were

    walking up on some stupidhead getting his > drill
    > out to place the
    > bolt

    and kicking his ass down the next 5 rappells. > (a
    > little activism

    never hurts) but to remove the bolt to place > 30'
    > webbing..



    I dont want to accuse or blame anyone but i > dont
    > understand the

    logic. was the bolt bad? (safey concerns) was > it
    > an eye sore? (all

    bolts are) Honestly i think i would have more
    > problems with a long

    run of webbing.



    if i am wrong please let me know..

    Matt Johnson







    Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with > Messenger
    http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
    >

    Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
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