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Mind Bender Fork, bolts removed, anchor cleanup

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by cardlaw22, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. cardlaw22

    cardlaw22 Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "beadysee" <beadysee@> wrote:
    Have fun, and, I hope no one who expects a bolted anchor gets killed
    in there. Blood on your hands, man. You could get sued into the
    stone age too.
    Cheers,
    -Brian in SLC
    > I'm waiting for Tom, to say "I checked with my lawyer....." ;-)
    Sued? Really? The basis? Calling Scott Card! Other lawyers? I guess > you can sued over anything...but win? No matter, depletes the lump > under the mattress either way. Question......"If you place a bolt and > it fails, could you get sued too?" Why one different than the other? > Huh??? Sued? When did creating/ or "un-creating" an anchor or modifying an anchor create a duty of care to someone else? Seems to me the current standard of care is you care for yourself in the wilds including slot canyons. Every anchor must be checked, bolt or no bolt. The underlying assumption that seems to be implied by Brian is that by removing a bolt you create a danger. I don't think so. The danger is the rappel, not the anchor. The anchor may or may not be there and may or may not safely get you down the danger but the danger is ever present with or without a bolt. Are we to a point in society that when we go into the wilds of Utah, into a slot canyon that we expect an anchor will be there simply because it is in a guide book or was in a guide book? Therefore, we rely on that "old" information and go unprepared? I hope not. I'll scratch my head on this one but I ain't seeing the liability for removing a bolt, cutting webbing, g-picking a crappy hole. Heck, I better sue Kelsey cause his holes in Imlay were crappy this year. It actually took Spidey two tries in one pot hole due to the long reach for the only two good holes. Emotional distress for sure! Point is, with or without a bolt, the danger exists. Because someone said that there is a bolt, do I leave my brain and equipment at home? I hope not. Anchors come and anchors go. Dangers come and go in canyons and everywhere else in the wild. Does removing a bolt create a danger. No, not really, the danger again is the cliff. Seems one should be perfectly safe standing there looking down. Seems to me what is being espoused here (you could get sued if you change something reported in a guide book/TR) would shut down every climbing route, slot canyon (Zion - don't give them ideas) every bike path, and every other fun wilderness thing that has had some form of human impact with an accompanying trip report. I wonder if I am responsible for the content of my trip report? Yikes. Let the head scratching begin. I'll let you know if I can come up with a viable negligence theory. I see no blood on the hands of anyone pulling bolts, cutting webbing, etc. I do see blood on the hands of those who are unprepared or who take an unnecessary risk because an expected wilderness condition no longer exists. (Dang, I was not going to get involved in this one)

    As for your question Ram, the answer is, it depends. Were you the leader of an organized group? Were you a guide? If there is liability, it would seem to be limited to the immediate group on hand. That is a huge IF in my book. Obviously if a bolt is poorly placed, you stick only half of it in and seal it with Bubble Yum, you may have a problem. You fell below the standard of care. If it is done properly but blows out? Accident, and probably no liability. As far as the next group? They better check. If I don't like a bolt, I would be foolish to use it and I had better have the know-how and gear to solve the problem. You climbers out there, do you not have a bunch of gear on your belt just in case even though you are on a trade route? I have said enough for now. Any statement above is not legal advice and cannot be considered as such. No statements apply to any where dangerous. I joined this group as the self proclaimed "village idiot". I am not an expert in canyoneering. Buyer beware, your mileage may vary, don't plug in while showering.
  2. Hal Tompkins

    Hal Tompkins Guest

    As someone who led a group through Mindbender this past October, I will comment that I did bring a shovel and lots of extra webbing and was prepared to build a deadman anchor. Hal.



  3. adkramoo

    adkramoo Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, Hal Tompkins <hal_tompkins@...> wrote:
    As someone who led a group through Mindbender this past October, I will comment that I did bring a shovel and lots of extra webbing and was prepared to build a deadman anchor. Hal.

    Excellent. What kind and size of group? Have fun? One of those small collapsible shovels? Have young bucks to carry it? Shovel for snow, for sure. In a canyon? I suppose I have seen some baked hard ground before. Another use for the versatile helmet? ;-) Thanx for the post
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