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UT: Zion Leisurely day down Spry and bolt placement question

Discussion in 'Trip Reports' started by bhalvers2002, Oct 24, 2014.

  1. Cameron

    Cameron Long Tall Texan by birth

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    Thank you for posting this. We plan to do Spry for the first time in this week or next and glad to know that will be coming!
  2. Cameron

    Cameron Long Tall Texan by birth

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    oops double post
  3. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    I just noticed those rope grooves I'm talking about are visible in the OP (see the video in the middle.)
  4. darhawk

    darhawk

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    Resurrecting this thread, we did Spry today and there was a thin sheet of running water at this rappel, making it more slippery and difficult. I'm with those who think it's a bit scary, but I would have to see how it is in dryer conditions. I'm not sure I understand the idea that some have said of "setting up a belay around the tree." I'm having a hard time visualizing how this works in a simple fashion if it is going to be retrievable by the last person. Or does the last person just not get a belay?
  5. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Second to last person belays tree person to the anchor?

    Am I missing something?
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  6. darhawk

    darhawk

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    I guess I'm just over-thinking this. Tom talked about setting up a "belay off the tree," and I've never thought about a tree as a belay. I think of people as belayers and trees or other objects as anchors. I guess belay can also mean fixed anchor point. I also wondered if there was a reason why he mentioned a tree rather than a meat anchor belayer. Like I say, probably just over-thinking it. And I guess the assumption is that the last person would not have protection as they approach the bolted anchor, unless they set up some kind of retrievable anchor around a tree to use to approach the anchor. But that would be overkill at this spot, I take it, unless icy.

    I do like the various ideas people have put forward here and understood most of them. But I wondered if I was missing some helpful tool in my bag of tricks that is known as a "tree belay" or now, belaying a "tree person."
  7. Phavant

    Phavant

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    Your on the right track. Typically its just webbing looped around the tree. With the knot placed close to your belay loop. You can then approach the anchor and get clipped in ready to rappel. Then untie the knot and pull the webbing from around the tree and rappel.
    darhawk likes this.
  8. Mike

    Mike epic blarneys

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    Belaying to exposed anchors is a great idea. Clipping into exposed anchors is a great idea too. I rarely see people do either of those things.

    Icy anchor approaches in Spry you ask?

    First rap. Meat anchor belay for me to get to anchor. I clip in and belay Tim across the ice. Tim slips, I catch him.

    [​IMG]

    The rap in question. Anchor approach is icy (no pic). Meat anchor belay from upstream. 2nd to last person belays from anchor (as Brian suggests). A fall would be messy for the last person, but better than hitting the ground.

    [​IMG]
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  9. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Because the tree was tiny and not well rooted, and would have failed in any significant fall, perhaps. Or because even if the tree was a valid anchor, leaving a long piece of webbing on it is entirely unnecessary. Someone cleaned up the trash.

    If you are doing Zion Canyons in winter, I hope you have the necessary technical savvy to find a way to belay to this anchor without leaving trash behind, or needing fixed trash in the canyons.

    Tom :moses:
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  10. Cameron

    Cameron Long Tall Texan by birth

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    Yesterday, I was the one that set up the above mentioned anchor. I had someone belay me to the station and I clipped myself in. I set up a long safety line that the last person removed.

    We also cleaned up a safety line installed at the rappel I think people call the comb area. It was a 10 foot piece of bright blue webbing with two rapide links were used to clip around a small tree and into the bolts. The area wasn't too exposed and you really didn't want to fall there for sure...but a 10 foot bright blue line....nah.
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  11. Cameron

    Cameron Long Tall Texan by birth

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    I forgot to take a pic of all we cleaned up but it was a lot. Many anchors had 2-3 pieces of webbing that all did the same thing, several rappel rings on the same anchor, safety lines, hand lines for down climbs left. The tree mentioned in this thread had 3 anchors installed to it....but no more!
  12. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Thank you.

    Tom
  13. darhawk

    darhawk

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    As obvious as it now seems, I had not thought of the second-to-last person belaying the last person to the anchor, while clipped into the anchor. Exposed anchors are relatively new to me.

    I can also see how the last person could do a very simple retrievable with this method.

    Thanks all. That's why I come here. I learn a lot.
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  14. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Its interesting to me how folks who come from different outdoor sports approach canyoneering. Hikers, cavers, climbers...all different methods and idears.

    If there was perceived to be some danger in approaching an exposed anchor, from the side, or, top, or, even below, the climbing approach would be to put the first person on belay to the anchor. Then, the followers get a belay to that anchor. The last person would retrieve whatever intermittent anchor was placed to protect the first person (sling on a tree, a rock pinch, maybe some climbing gear, a rope knot in a crack, etc).

    Large groups tend to rig a line or sling to clip into to protect the followers to an anchor. Smaller groups would just belay off the rope and not bother with setting a fixed line or sling.

    Fun stuff. Teamwork!

    "The Brotherhood of the Rope."
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  15. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    People doing a canyon "know" how to set up a retrievable safety line, which is essentially an almost-horizontal rappel. But they may not know that they know how to do that, thus the "safety line" at the Mystery Springs rappel is almost a permanent feature. Same deal here, more or less.

    Large groups rig a safety line, and then leave it, thinking leaving crap in the Wilderness is a service to the community. Please don't do this. Leave as little behind as possible.

    Tom
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  16. Tom Collins

    Tom Collins

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    It is sad how easy it is to fall back into the mode of leaving gear behind without having the message repeated (as shown by my previous statement). The very few times I've done clean canyons with all ghosting anchors, there was zero temptation to leave something behind, even when the anchor placement wasn't obvious. Even when it took several minutes to decide where to place an anchor when there were easy and obvious places to sling some webbing, but wouldn't work with a sandtrap or fiddlestick. Its the trade routes where there is already a lot of gear left behind that its easy to forget the LNT ethic and justify placing just one more piece of webbing, because there is already so much in the canyon. I think I've read this somewhere else, but trash begets trash.
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  17. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    Beats the 1500 feet of rope someone left down the scree slope a while back!
  18. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    It's also interesting how canyoneers are so much more willing to leave gear behind than climbers. Climbers tend to rap off some ratty old thing rather than sacrifice their precious $4 sling. Canyoneers tend to replace every sling in the canyon that has been there longer than a week. Maybe because they're used to all their gear being disposable. A climber wouldn't leave that blue sling there not because he didn't want to trash the canyon, but because he didn't want to have to go buy new sling!
  19. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    It's also interesting how canyoneers are so much more willing to leave gear behind than climbers. Climbers tend to rap off some ratty old thing rather than sacrifice their precious $4 sling.

    Actually, my experience is the exact opposite, except for maybe in some of the trade canyons.
  20. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Isn't there a "how to" book out there that recommends not rappelling off any sling found left on a canyon route? Seem to recall that. Might account for some of the replacement/addition slings.

    Folks want to be good stewards and canyon anchors are upgraded with new sling as a result of that, too.

    Most climbers rappel from fixed anchors placed and replaced to facilitate not having to leave anything like sling behind. ARI, ASCA,. etc. As climbing areas evolve and get more popular, folks tend to replace and upgrade the fixed anchor material that becomes used by the community.

    Popular canyons tend to get fixed anchors used by the masses too. No leftover sling required. Popular canyons that lack fixed anchors get rope grooves...(!).
    Jman likes this.
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