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Last Rap in the Subway - intervention?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ratagonia, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    I completely disagree that 12 is too many or too slow or unsafe.

    We've had a lot of great family and friend trips with 10 to 12 people and even larger groups outside of permitted areas.
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  2. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Agree.

    Also: one of the stated goals of the Backcountry Management Plan is to provide a variety of experiences. There are two canyons that consistently offer an urbanish social experience on a fine-weather weekend in high summer: Subway and Pine Creek. There are approximately 30 beta'd canyons where you are unlikely to see another party, even on the Park's most-crowded days. I can guarantee that in Icebox Canyon and in Corral Hollow you will not meet another party. Right Fork is an amazing canyon that sees very little traffic. And there's a lot more, even with quite a few canyons unavailable at the moment.

    Tom
  3. Wayne L

    Wayne L

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    Tom,

    You make a good point. We did Boundary Canyon on Labor Day and didn't see anyone until we got back to the car.

    My only point is that the park service almost encourages larger groups by giving a per person discount. I'm sure some of that has to do with the time spent issuing permits at the backcountry desk, which takes the same amount of time to issue a permit to a party of two as it does for a party of 12. But I've always felt that it doesn't encourage small group sizes which would improve the experience for all.

    That being said, for people that want shorter lines at the last rap in The Subway, leave early and move quickly.

    Wayne
  4. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    I use the LFTH all the time to access a couple swimming holes down there completely unrelated to Subway; so far I guess I've been fortunate to not have my car ticketed while I was down hammocking and reading a book in Lower LF... ugh.
  5. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    I have wondered about this too. The same trailheads (both the standard upper and lower trailheads) used for the Subway are also used to access other areas. I had friends harassed by a ranger while they were parking at the Russell Gulch Trailhead even though they were headed for the Northgate Peaks. Apparently the ranger didn't understand that there are other trails and routes that start from the same trailhead, so they unpacked their packs to show him that they weren't carrying any ropes.
  6. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    Aye, they really need to get a grip; it's straight up harassment.

    There's a lot of country accessed by the Wildcat TH; Pine Valley, down over into Lee Valley, traverses to little Creek, which dump out onto the dinosaur tracks of Subway... all without ever entering the LF within a mile of the Subway. Was out thereabouts 2 days ago peak bagging, tracing big herds of elk hither and thither.

    Also came across the biggest muley I've ever seen, had to be pushing 280-300lbs. Or what was left of him, anyway. Sinew was still tacky, so it's sometime in the last month. Old boy got caught slippin'...
    IMG_20210320_1858160.
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  7. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    except that is an elk :)
  8. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    I was back and forth on what it was; young elk vs very mature muledeer. I came up outfitting bear/whitetail in MN, so am a bit out of my depth here in alpine UT.

    When I suggested a young elk, the local gal I was with was pretty hard on it being a muledeer, so I yielded my opinion.

    The what gave me pause was the hooves; big chonky suckers they was...

    What other tell-tail (or torn-tail) signs should I be looking for?
  9. 2065toyota

    2065toyota

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    Large head, large hooves, shape of horns definite giveaway. Elk horns have a main beam similar to whitetails but just a lot larger
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  10. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Yep, looks like an elk.

    Look how dark the fur is on the head and by the hooves. Brow tines look a lot different, too. On elk I think they tend to project forward and be fairly long. Deer go up.

    And muley's antlers fork into two while whitetail branch off the main beam.

    Pretty neat find.
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  11. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    There is a Russell Gulch Trailhead now?
  12. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    You need a permit for that. VERY CLEAR.

    Sorry, I would need a permit for that.

    The Quota system in the backcountry is an attempt to maintain a low or moderate level of social interactions. Essentially, to keep places from feeling crowded. You might find it hard to believe that they are keeping the Subway from being crowded, but clearly people hike up to get to the actual part called The Subway, and arrive about the same time the many many beginner canyoneers get to the ledge above the same spot; and then glacially rappel the short rappel. But it is all one zone, from the rim near the Left Fork TH to the top of the downclimb into Russell Gulch. Yes, it is a crude system. I vigorously objected to the process that the Backcountry Management Plan was put together by; but I think they did a pretty good job and I am grateful that the backcountry of zion is uncrowded, while the front country and Springdale are MANIC!

    The Right Fork Trailhead does not require a permit. Next time you go lounging, go that way.

    Tom
  13. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Overly-enthusiastic, poorly-trained LE Ranger.

    Part of the problem of having most/many of the "Rangers" be LE. As elsewhere in the country, LEs see the world through the eyes of Chaos that needs to be brought under control, at times. It mixes poorly with the concept of wilderness and backcountry. (Then again, the NPS LEs I know do not fit this stereotype - so...

    Tom
  14. Ram

    Ram

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    Wildcat trail head
    Ranger Volunteer: Sir....can I see your permit?
    Ram: I don't have one and I don't need one.
    Ranger Volunteer: Yes you do.
    Ram: No I don't. I am going to climb North Guardian
    Ranger Volunteer: You still need a permit
    Ram: Call your boss. I am off before it gets too warm.
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  15. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    Hypothetical or did this happen? I assume that it did.

    PS, do you need a Subway permit to do South Guardian?
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  16. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Technically, South G requires a permit to enter the Left Fork drainage bottom. However, the Park has waived this requirement in the past. They could change their mind at any moment. Since SG does not require a permit, it is hard to say how this would be implemented.

    Tom
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  17. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    After reading this latest page it takes my mind back...

    "And the sign said
    "Anybody caught trespassin'
    Will be shot on sight"
    So I jumped on the fence and I yelled at the house
    Hey! What gives you the right
    To put up a fence to keep me out
    But to keep Mother Nature in?
    If God was here he'd tell you to your face
    Man, you're some kinda sinner"

    "Now, hey you, mister, can't you read?
    You've got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
    You can't even watch, no, you can't eat
    You ain't supposed to be here."

    "Signs" Five Man Electrical Band (1971)
    bhunte2 and hank moon like this.
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