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Kamikaze Knot

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by larsmpeterson, Sep 5, 2008.

  1. For those who haven't seen it, the Discovery Channel has a program called Man vs Wild where a survival expert (Bear Grylls) goes into remote/dangerous places and has to get himself out with minimal equipment. On a recent program he was atop a cliff after previously happening to have scavenged some thick rope from a nearby shipwreck… needed to rap down but wanted to keep his rope. He didn't have enough rope for the drop, so he unwound the two major strands and tied them together to get enough length for a single strand rappel. Lowered himself down with a body-wrap type rappel, so passing the know was not a big problem. His solution to get his rope back was what he called a Kamikaze Knot. He tied a knot, then cut the rope at a specific location within the knot, then by keeping tension on the rope and knot, he rappelled down with the knot intact (even though the rope had been completely cut essentially at the anchor). Once down, tension was relieved from the rope/knot and he shook the knot loose and down came the majority of the rope, the part above where he had cut the rope stayed at the top of the cliff wrapped around the anchor. Sorry but I can't find a link to video from the segment, but it looked like he tied a sheepshank then cut one of the three middle strands???

    So, along with the recent rappelling from a hook discussion, I figured I would throw this out there as another most likely bad idea to avoid if at all possible. At the same time, maybe doesn't hurt to know the method in the hopefully unlikely event that you ever find yourself needing to descend multiple drops with one rope only, no additional gear (I know, this should never happen)…Or is there a better way that would make this kamikaze knot best left to those who actually do intend to end their own lives??

    As a bit of a sidebar, I don't know how to use any ghosting methods – not to say that the kamikaze knot is a ghost method- or other `slick' (read dangerous) ways to retrieve your anchor system, but would be interested to hear what people might think about them.

    Anyone have comments on the kamikazee knot other retrievable systems?

    Thanks, Lars
  2. desertres

    desertres Guest

    I would say it appears this sheepshank has to be under tension at all times(and maybe difficult to pull) so what are the alternatives?

    a) Koen mentioned something about using a munter hitch to slow down the rope on descent...but advised it was not for use at this time.

    b)breaking apart a rope. I imagine it would take a while to separate strands, but what kind of raps we talking about ;-)? Guess that would mean depending on a 4mm diameter....whew.

    c) wait for a rescue if a safe escape is not available, or maybe its popular enough that someone is coming down soon.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "larsmpeterson" <larsmpeterson@...> wrote:
    For those who haven't seen it, the Discovery Channel has a program > called Man vs Wild where a survival expert (Bear Grylls) goes into > remote/dangerous places and has to get himself out with minimal > equipment. On a recent program he was atop a cliff after previously > happening to have scavenged some thick rope from a nearby shipwreck… > needed to rap down but wanted to keep his rope. He didn't have > enough rope for the drop, so he unwound the two major strands and > tied them together to get enough length for a single strand rappel. > Lowered himself down with a body-wrap type rappel, so passing the > know was not a big problem. His solution to get his rope back was > what he called a Kamikaze Knot. He tied a knot, then cut the rope at > a specific location within the knot, then by keeping tension on the > rope and knot, he rappelled down with the knot intact (even though > the rope had been completely cut essentially at the anchor). Once > down, tension was relieved from the rope/knot and he shook the knot > loose and down came the majority of the rope, the part above where > he had cut the rope stayed at the top of the cliff wrapped around > the anchor. Sorry but I can't find a link to video from the segment, > but it looked like he tied a sheepshank then cut one of the three > middle strands???
    So, along with the recent rappelling from a hook discussion, I > figured I would throw this out there as another most likely bad idea > to avoid if at all possible. At the same time, maybe doesn't hurt to > know the method in the hopefully unlikely event that you ever find > yourself needing to descend multiple drops with one rope only, no > additional gear (I know, this should never happen)…Or is there a > better way that would make this kamikaze knot best left to those who > actually do intend to end their own lives??
    As a bit of a sidebar, I don't know how to use any ghosting methods – > not to say that the kamikaze knot is a ghost method- or > other `slick' (read dangerous) ways to retrieve your anchor system, > but would be interested to hear what people might think about them.
    Anyone have comments on the kamikazee knot other retrievable systems?
    Thanks, > Lars >
  3. Mark

    Mark Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "larsmpeterson" <larsmpeterson@...> wrote:
    For those who haven't seen it, the Discovery Channel has a program > called Man vs Wild where a survival expert (Bear Grylls) goes into > remote/dangerous places and has to get himself out with minimal > equipment.

    I have seen a couple episodes of Man vs Wild and have to say that Bear Grylls is a joke. The techniqes he suggests are not only foolish but often dangerous. On one episode when he was dropped off in the High Sierras, he comes across a pristine alpine lake, but won't drink the water, declareing the he will 'treat it later'. In the same episode, he spends huge amounts of time and energy constructing a log raft to float down a rushing creek of freezing water. No wetsuit, no PFD. Great idea. Finally, he gets to the low country and comes across wild horses in a meadow, and he lassos on in order to ride it out!

    As if this nonsense weren't enough, I discovered that he spends his nights in quality hotels while 'on location' and his only claim to fame is eating stuff that would make the rest of us gag. Maybe he should learn about native plants, or the nutritional value of insects.

    Survivor man, on the other hand, is the real deal. Props to him.
  4. Bill

    Bill Guest

    It just so happens I was talking to a friend this weekend who is a well-trained survivalist. He described a time he was deer hunting, ran out of water, and used a "Suicide Knot" to drop down a cliff to a river and then retrieve (most of) the rope with a pull. Sounds like the same knot as the kamikaze--a cut rope in a sheepshank of sorts-- which he promised to teach me this week. Now whether I actually use it is in some doubt. But I'd like to see it work and it might be useful to know. If I think it's not a hazard, I'll try to find a way to pass it on--video or drawing. Bill

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "larsmpeterson" <larsmpeterson@...> wrote:
    For those who haven't seen it, the Discovery Channel has a program > called Man vs Wild where a survival expert (Bear Grylls) goes into > remote/dangerous places and has to get himself out with minimal > equipment. On a recent program he was atop a cliff after previously > happening to have scavenged some thick rope from a nearby shipwreck… > needed to rap down but wanted to keep his rope. He didn't have > enough rope for the drop, so he unwound the two major strands and > tied them together to get enough length for a single strand rappel. > Lowered himself down with a body-wrap type rappel, so passing the > know was not a big problem. His solution to get his rope back was > what he called a Kamikaze Knot. He tied a knot, then cut the rope at > a specific location within the knot, then by keeping tension on the > rope and knot, he rappelled down with the knot intact (even though > the rope had been completely cut essentially at the anchor). Once > down, tension was relieved from the rope/knot and he shook the knot > loose and down came the majority of the rope, the part above where > he had cut the rope stayed at the top of the cliff wrapped around > the anchor. Sorry but I can't find a link to video from the segment, > but it looked like he tied a sheepshank then cut one of the three > middle strands???
    So, along with the recent rappelling from a hook discussion, I > figured I would throw this out there as another most likely bad idea > to avoid if at all possible. At the same time, maybe doesn't hurt to > know the method in the hopefully unlikely event that you ever find > yourself needing to descend multiple drops with one rope only, no > additional gear (I know, this should never happen)…Or is there a > better way that would make this kamikaze knot best left to those who > actually do intend to end their own lives??
    As a bit of a sidebar, I don't know how to use any ghosting methods – > not to say that the kamikaze knot is a ghost method- or > other `slick' (read dangerous) ways to retrieve your anchor system, > but would be interested to hear what people might think about them.
    Anyone have comments on the kamikazee knot other retrievable systems?
    Thanks, > Lars >
  5. Bill

    Bill Guest

    I tried this tonight, mainly because I was curious and my friend said he had done it. He called it a Suicide Knot. The knot is simple, just tie a sheepshank and cut the middle (non-load-bearing) strand. You've got to make absolutely sure you cut the right strand, but a visual check can confirm and I think you'll know right away if you goof. Then you keep the load evenly on rope going down and ...

    Well, that's the problem. Sheepshanks really don't hold that well on synthetic ropes. They are way too smooth and the knot is unstable. (Maybe everyone else knew this, but I didn't.) I had mixed results, some pulling apart under tension, which, if I was higher in the air and in an actual rappelling situation could be deadly. My friend showed me the kind of rope he used--maybe a 12-14mm old braided nylon rope--very high friction. The sheepshank held fine under tension with that rope.

    So, here's where I came out. I would no not never do this with a climbing or canyoneering rope. However, in the almost infintessimally slight chance that my life was on the line, I needed to get down a wall, there was no other way, rescue unlikely and I happened to have a high-friction rope with me which I absolutely had to save, then yeah, I would probably do it, but I'd have to change my pants at the bottom.

    The other place it would come in handy is if you had a TV show and wanted to show off a cool but useless trick.

    Bill

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "larsmpeterson" <larsmpeterson@...> wrote:
    For those who haven't seen it, the Discovery Channel has a program > called Man vs Wild where a survival expert (Bear Grylls) goes into > remote/dangerous places and has to get himself out with minimal > equipment. On a recent program he was atop a cliff after previously > happening to have scavenged some thick rope from a nearby shipwreck… > needed to rap down but wanted to keep his rope. He didn't have > enough rope for the drop, so he unwound the two major strands and > tied them together to get enough length for a single strand rappel. > Lowered himself down with a body-wrap type rappel, so passing the > know was not a big problem. His solution to get his rope back was > what he called a Kamikaze Knot. He tied a knot, then cut the rope at > a specific location within the knot, then by keeping tension on the > rope and knot, he rappelled down with the knot intact (even though > the rope had been completely cut essentially at the anchor). Once > down, tension was relieved from the rope/knot and he shook the knot > loose and down came the majority of the rope, the part above where > he had cut the rope stayed at the top of the cliff wrapped around > the anchor. Sorry but I can't find a link to video from the segment, > but it looked like he tied a sheepshank then cut one of the three > middle strands???
    So, along with the recent rappelling from a hook discussion, I > figured I would throw this out there as another most likely bad idea > to avoid if at all possible. At the same time, maybe doesn't hurt to > know the method in the hopefully unlikely event that you ever find > yourself needing to descend multiple drops with one rope only, no > additional gear (I know, this should never happen)…Or is there a > better way that would make this kamikaze knot best left to those who > actually do intend to end their own lives??
    As a bit of a sidebar, I don't know how to use any ghosting methods – > not to say that the kamikaze knot is a ghost method- or > other `slick' (read dangerous) ways to retrieve your anchor system, > but would be interested to hear what people might think about them.
    Anyone have comments on the kamikazee knot other retrievable systems?
    Thanks, > Lars >
  6. hank moon

    hank moon Guest

    i heard about this knot years ago...it was called the "Screamin' Sheepshank. Pretty bold technique! However, the method was slightly different in that you cut off a short piece of rope to use as the anchor end, then tied the short bit to the long bit using the "screamin'" knot...you know the rest. Never did try it out... :)

    On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Bill wmjaho@yahoo.com> wrote: > I tried this tonight, mainly because I was curious and my friend said > he had done it. He called it a Suicide Knot. The knot is simple,
  7. bomabro84738

    bomabro84738 Guest

    A friend of mine, Eric Brueck, used to use this method in the early days (1960's) of "Canyoneering"! Yikes! This "bend" was designed to shorten a rope without cutting it, not shorten your life by cutting the rope ;-0

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "hank moon" <onkaluna@...> wrote:
    i heard about this knot years ago...it was called the "Screamin' > Sheepshank. Pretty bold technique! However, the method was slightly > different in that you cut off a short piece of rope to use as the > anchor end, then tied the short bit to the long bit using the > "screamin'" knot...you know the rest. Never did try it out... :)
    On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Bill <wmjaho@...> wrote:
    I tried this tonight, mainly because I was curious and my friend said
    he had done it. He called it a Suicide Knot. The knot is simple, >
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