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Jumping

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Paul Martzen, Sep 29, 2002.

  1. Paul Martzen

    Paul Martzen Guest

    Hello,

    Cjain asked me a question off list and I was so flattered that I got carried away with my answer. It got so long that I figured, hey, why just bore one person with it. Foist it on the whole list.

    Chris asked how to decide whether a pool is jumpable on a first decent or your first decent.

    Here is my long winded answer. -----

    As for jumping into pools, there are some cases where it is obviously clean, some cases where it is obviosly not clean, and some cases where it is hard to tell.

    A lot of places around here (California Sierra) the water is very clear, so you can see the walls dissappearing downward and you can see the tops of boulders if they are there. Where the pool is clear but black then we figure it is plenty deep and that is your target zone. We have lots of jumps with small target zones.

    Sometimes ignorance is bliss, though. When I started off, we just wore swim trunks, lifejacket and maybe a windbreaker or paddling jacket. We froze, but the lifejacket kept us from going very deep. After I started using a full wetsuit, I sometimes forgo the lifejacket. I have ended up touching bottom in places that I thought were bottomless. I highly recommend taking a mask and exploring the underwater as well as the above water. Often, it is not the actual bottom that people sometimes touch, but the rounded top of a boulder or a narrow ridge of rock.

    On the other hand, I will not jump into murky water, or white froth at the base of falls because you cannot see how deep it is. What you can do, is lower the first person, using just a quick body anchor and have them check it out. If they find a deep spot where the rest can jump, it saves a lot of time and trouble. The last person does not need to set any anchors or pull a rope. Jumping is usually quicker and easier than lowering or rappelling.

    There is one spot on a popular section where we always had an awkward downclimb till Tim found the secret spot. There is a 27 foot drop and the pool is obviously very shallow. Tim found a small but very deep pothole directly under the waterfall (7 cfs). So he goes first, drops into the pothole, then climbs out and stands at the edge, where the water is only about knee deep. As long as you drop into the 4 or 5 foot space between the wall and Tim, you never hit bottom!

    Sometimes I figure a spot is deep enough, even if it is not as deep as I would like. I try to jump from as low as possible and try to collapse and spread out as I enter the water to keep from going deep. I might touch the bottom, but not with any force.

    Then there is the catagory of little spots where the water is obviously shallow, knee or waist deep, but there is no smooth downclimb. You can lower yourself within a foot or so of the surface but as soon as you let go, you accelerate into the water and into whatever irregularity is underneath. Places like that you really want partners who are considerate of each other and are willing to lower or catch each other. Otherwise you start bashing your shins and knees. It is weird how some really small, seemingly inconsequential drops can be so awkward.

    I have learned some things about the heighth of jumps also. People do trips with a lot of jumps and they get used to it and tend to start doing higher and higher jumps.

    With jumps in the 20 to 30 foot range it seems like you can be fairly sloppy and get away with it. By sloppy I just mean that your feet can be flat and arms can be spread out and your angle can be a bit off and it still might not hurt too much. You get into the 40 and 50 foot range and little errors in form really start to hurt. Entering with feet flat can cause your legs to collapse so your but hits really hard. If your hands are not tight to your body your wrists can be hyperextended. You can get some major bruises by not being perfectly vertical.

    I notice there is a lot of unexpected things people will do at times. We tend to jump towards where it seems more open, even when told there may be a hidden obstacle. One spot that I can think of has a waterfall on the left hiding a shallow boulder. There is a clean deep hole straight ahead but ringed by walls. First timers have a strong tendancy to jump to the left, away from the walls but towards the hidden boulder, even though they intend to hit the correct target zone. It is a place where it is better to just lower people until you know they have an accurate sense of trajectory. We have a habit of tossing our backpacks into a pool before jumping. If somebody tosses their pack into or close to the target zone, it really screws with their confidence and aim. This seems true even if the target zone is huge.

    Before I started canyoneering I do not think I was much into jumping off cliffs, though I must have done some. After doing some trips with lots of jumping though, it seemed perfectly natural to walk up to a cliff, glance over and step off. Since I have not been as active for awhile, it is no longer nearly as easy.

    One last important item of concern that I have no definite answer for. Your nose and sinuses! We have pretty clean water in the Sierra, but it makes you wonder when you get water blasted up into your sinuses all the time. Kayaking may be as bad, but noseplugs stay on fairly well when kayaking. When jumping, it seems harder to keep noseplugs on, or I just tend to forget them. I tried to hold my nose with my hand once; almost gave myself a black eye!

    Paul Martzen Fresno, California
  2. Bo Beck

    Bo Beck Guest

    > And I won't even tell you what other damn dangerous stuff that monkey did, and lived to tell the tale!
    Sooooo.....I'm not jumping any more unless the monkey goes first! ; )
    ~Randi

    Tom Jones <tom@j...> wrote: > Aw, c'mon. You could have just jumped that!

    Just a Quick Un-Lurk; Have been called out on 6 SARS in the last month and a half. 50% of the reason= jumpers. Good call Randi, but let the monkey have the fun! Bo
  3. Stevee B

    Stevee B Guest

    I believe it. The Monkey will fill in the blanks later...some good clean adventurous fun, some misguided recklessness that the monkey will not soon repeat....

    BTW, I gave blood and went into shock yesterday. This ever happen to anyone? Scariest experience of my life, hands down.

    --- In canyons@yahoogroups.com, "Bo Beck" <bobeck@o...> wrote:

    And I won't even tell you what other damn dangerous stuff that > monkey did, and lived to tell the tale!

    Sooooo.....I'm not jumping any more unless the monkey goes > first! ; )

    ~Randi


    --- In nickwoolley@backcountrypost.com, "Bo Beck" <bobeck@o...> wrote:


    Tom Jones <tom@j...> wrote:
    Aw, c'mon. You could have just jumped that!
    Just a Quick Un-Lurk; Have been called out on 6 SARS in the last > month and a half. 50% of the reason= jumpers. Good call Randi, but > let the monkey have the fun! > Bo
  4. W. B.

    W. B. Guest

    on 7/27/04 9:50 AM, Stevee B at SteveBrezovec@hotmail.com wrote:

    > BTW, I gave blood and went into shock yesterday. This ever happen to > anyone? Scariest experience of my life, hands down.

    The birth of my child, no problem. Accidents, missing digits, skulls split open to the bone, blood (some of it my own) no problem. Watching my wife get an epidural, almost fainted.

    The mind and body find some things upsetting and some things normal. Strange.

    -Bill
  5. Emily Bement

    Emily Bement Guest

    That happened to my boss a few weeks ago.... had to lug her to the car and then to the hospital. It was interesting enough for me, but it was really terrifying for her. I sure hope that never happens to me!

    Em



    > BTW, I gave blood and went into shock yesterday. This ever happen to > anyone? Scariest experience of my life, hands down.
  6. jef levin

    jef levin Guest

    It depends a lot on the conditions and the person jumping, and from how high they jump. Landing on sand is a lot softer than hitting rock. If you think you might hit bottom, it helps quite a bit to hold a floatable pack in your arms. - jef

    I have not been able to find any solid information relaying exactly how deep water needs to be for safe, feet first entry.

  7. cyber_rager

    cyber_rager Guest

    I saw a recent Mythbusters (I know, but it is fun to watch) and they were looking at jumping from 35 ft into 4 ft of water. They were trying to prove/disprove that if you jumped onto a mattress, you would survive if you landed on your butt on the mattress. They found out that your would die if you did that (land on a floating mattress) but you could, with the right technique, jump into 4 ft of water from 35 feet and survive. It is interesting to note that if you land wrong from 35 feet, you could die from that, or have severe injuries to your pelvis.

    I am not one to randomly jump during a canyoning or caving trip, but I have done it and lived to tell about it.

    What is the highest with the shallowest landing that you have jumped into? What would be a good general rule of jumping, i.e. what do you look at or do to determine that its safe to trust gravity?

    I think I have jumped maybe 20 ft into 6 feet of water. I know that the highest I have jumped is about 60 ft (scary) but that was into deep water.

    Scott
  8. rickinlo

    rickinlo Guest

    > What is the highest with the shallowest landing that you have jumped into? What would be a good general rule of jumping, i.e. what do you look at or do to determine that its safe to trust gravity?

    The second to last drop in Eaton Canyon in CA slides ~10 feet then drops off ~30 feet into a 6 foot deep pool. The bottom is flat and sandy. All the locals were doing it, so I gave it a shot. Landed leaning slightly back, legs hit with knees bent to absorb the impact, and then my butt touched against the ground before resurfacing. I definitely wouldn't have wanted it to be any shallower.

    As far as rules... I can really only think of 2 main ones... both pretty obvious. 1) Always have someone check the depth (duh) 2) Jump as if you are landing in 6 inches deep water with an extremely uneven surface. This means, legs bent, and keep your ankles and all joints loose and relaxed.

    I've also jumped off 5-6 foot ledges into 2 foot deep pools by landing on my pack. I call this the NACAAMJIPUD, (the non-ACA approved method of jumping into a pool of unknown depth) or pack jumping. If you have a big enough pack with some good floatation, this can be a good way to get down small awkward drops that would be hard to down climb. Either fall backwards into the water onto your pack, with your legs and head tucked in, fetal position, or do 25% of a gainer and land in the same position. Though I wouldn't do this from very high, could probably hurt your back.

    I guess the safest option is, don't jump. But that's less fun. And on a rare occasion it's actually kind of the only option.

    Wearing your pack when you jump definitely makes a difference. I had mine off for the jump in Eaton. I usually take it off for jumps bigger than say 20 feet. It seems like from high enough there might be issues but I've never tried it. You certainly wouldn't go as deep with your pack on.
  9. rging@q.com

    rging@q.com Guest

    There is no jumping in canyoneering. And why would someone intentionally jump into shallow water? However I once found a rope swing at a reservoir with really steep sides and a rope that looked like it was put up by a lumberjack. It put me over the water at about 40 feet which was a lot higher than I wanted to fall.

    ----- Original Message ----- From: cyber_rager cyber_rager@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:55:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [from Canyons Group] Jumping What is the highest with the shallowest landing that you have jumped into? What would be a good general rule of jumping, i.e. what do you look at or do to determine that its safe to trust gravity?

    I think I have jumped maybe 20 ft into 6 feet of water. I know that the highest I have jumped is about 60 ft (scary) but that was into deep water.

    Scott
  10. richard berk

    richard berk Guest

    Not really canyoneering, not really jumping (any distance) - but really dumb and really shallow. Last day of guiding a San Juan section of a long outdoor course. There was only one other instructor with me, having left the students with other instructors. From the bank, perhaps half a foot above water level, I shallow dived into to what I thought was a couple feet of water - something I had done on many occasions before. My lower forehead made contact immediately with the bottom, only several inches below the surface. My head twisted down ramming my chin into my chest. Seconds in the thought hit me that this was indeed the stupidest thing that I had ever done and that there was a good chance I wouldn't walk again. I rolled over onto my back (it was shallow enough to lay on my back with my face out of the water) and started move testing my various parts while telling myself over and over how dumb I was.

    Turns out I survived with a sore neck and chest - and yes I no longer dive into shallow water. The sad part to the story is that the instructor, who witnessed my idiot move, died not too long after that in a climbing accident without doing anything stupid.

  11. Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.

    cyber_rager wrote:

    > I saw a recent Mythbusters (I know, but it is fun to watch) and they were looking at jumping from 35 ft into 4 ft of water. They were trying to prove/disprove that if you jumped onto a mattress, you would survive if you landed on your butt on the mattress. They found out that your would die if you did that (land on a floating mattress) but you could, with the right technique, jump into 4 ft of water from 35 feet and survive. It is interesting to note that if you land wrong from 35 feet, you could die from that, or have severe injuries to your pelvis.
    I am not one to randomly jump during a canyoning or caving trip, but I have done it and lived to tell about it.
    What is the highest with the shallowest landing that you have jumped into? What would be a good general rule of jumping, i.e. what do you look at or do to determine that its safe to trust gravity?
    I think I have jumped maybe 20 ft into 6 feet of water. I know that the highest I have jumped is about 60 ft (scary) but that was into deep water.
    Scott

    --

    Anton Solovyev
  12. Tim Vollmer

    Tim Vollmer Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@... wrote:
    There is no jumping in canyoneering. And why would someone intentionally jump into shallow water?

    No jumping in canyoneering? Perhaps you guys do it differently over there!

    I did a great remote canyon in the Blue Mountains the weekend before last that included four or five jumps. None too high, but almost all into shallow water (thigh to waist deep). A little jarring, but nothing too unpleasant, and much faster and more enjoyable than building half a dozen anchors! We were particularly keen on a jump after coming across a very large, very angry, and very poisonous Tiger Snake in one section of the canyon. No one was interested in looking for an anchor to rap that short drop!!!

    I'm always a little too nervous to do the insane jumps, but a friend and fellow Aussie canyoner who is notorious for wild jumps was in Europe a few years back. When he got to a 35m (115') two-part rap into a deep pool below a waterfall he asked his guide if it was deep enough to jump. They thought it was just an an innocent question, so casually answered that it was very deep and definitely possible. He scared them half to death when he nodded and leapt from the edge! Then again, this same bloke has such a good technique for hitting the water and shooting out sideways that he seems to regularly get away with big jumps into water far shallower than a mere mortal would consider.

    Tim Vollmer Mob: 0404 273 313 Email: tim.vollmer@gmail.com Web: www.fatcanyoners.org/
  13. Dominik

    Dominik Guest

    Canyons in Europe lend themselves to jumping, or perhaps the canyons that are popular become such due to added factor of water fun. It's important to know what you are jumping into, no doubt. Shallow jump requires different technique then a high jump. Jumping isn't for everyone, but if that is something you enjoy I encourage learning proper technique and practicing it. Practice high jumps, shallow jumps, jump for accuracy and jump for distance to feel comfortable what you can and can't clear as you jump. Similarly to practicing rope skills, I feel it's better to practice outside of the canyon in a group in a location with easy access.

    -- Dominik

  14. rickinlo

    rickinlo Guest

    > Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last > rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.

    Yeah, people do it all the time. It's pretty fun, easy, though I suppose has its risks. Definitely helps with making carrying technical gear through Subway unnecessary.

    Also, there are lots of canyons in the Western US with good jumping opportunity. Probably some of the best are in the Sierras, but also several of the canyons in Red Rocks, some great spots in Zion (but you shouldn't I guess, the permit says not to), and all over Arizona. Christopher Creek is particularly awesome for it. Nothing like I've seen videos of in in Europe, but still good, reasonably safe jumps.

    "We were particularly keen on a jump after coming across a very large, very angry, and very poisonous Tiger Snake in one section of the canyon."

    That sounds horrifying Tim. I think I feel suddenly less interested in one day making a trip to check the Blue Mountain canyons out...
  15. titanstairs

    titanstairs Guest

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DU2JRq7i5A

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:
    > Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last
    rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.
    Yeah, people do it all the time. It's pretty fun, easy, though I suppose has its risks. Definitely helps with making carrying technical gear through Subway unnecessary.
    > Also, there are lots of canyons in the Western US with good jumping opportunity. Probably some of the best are in the Sierras, but also several of the canyons in Red Rocks, some great spots in Zion (but you shouldn't I guess, the permit says not to), and all over Arizona. Christopher Creek is particularly awesome for it. Nothing like I've seen videos of in in Europe, but still good, reasonably safe jumps.
    "We were particularly keen on a jump after coming across a very large, very angry, and very poisonous Tiger Snake in one section of the canyon."
    That sounds horrifying Tim. I think I feel suddenly less interested in one day making a trip to check the Blue Mountain canyons out... >
  16. RAM

    RAM Guest

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@...> wrote:
    > Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last
    rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.
    Yeah, people do it all the time. It's pretty fun, easy, though I suppose has its risks. Definitely helps with making carrying technical gear through Subway unnecessary.

    I think this spot in Subway may have the most leg injuries of any spot on the plateau. Likely due to numbers and experience level being low. Nevertheless the sand deposits and scours regularly, so not bringing a harness on a given day seems quite risky to me. Smallish target too and 5 miles from help. YMMV Ram
  17. Shaun

    Shaun Guest

    I'd agree with Ram. I've seen this spot deep and have seen it very shallow.

    As for the OP question: What would be a good general rule of jumping, i.e. what do you look at or do to determine that its safe to trust gravity?

    I do not jump anything that has not been confirmed for appropriate depth and obstacles right before the jump. This usually involves sending someone down first (usually on rappel) and checking. Then if I do jump I only jump the the landing zone that is confirmed OK so that I don't accidentally land on any boulders that were not checked.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@> wrote:

    > Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last
    > rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.

    Yeah, people do it all the time. It's pretty fun, easy, though I suppose has its risks. Definitely helps with making carrying technical gear through Subway unnecessary.
    > I think this spot in Subway may have the most leg injuries of any spot on the plateau. Likely due to numbers and experience level being low. Nevertheless the sand deposits and scours regularly, so not bringing a harness on a given day seems quite risky to me. Smallish target too and 5 miles from help. YMMV > Ram >
  18. If my memory serves me correctly Zion is listed as a non-technical canyon and I can say that I have never jumped anywhere in the canyon. As for having a way to get down right at the end, there is a downclimb close to where the log crosses over the canyon and even if there is not a tree wedged into that small bowl it is still doable even for someone like me who drops like a rock when gravity takes over. The only place I would consider jumping is just past the bowling ball and that pool always seems to be deep enough. That is my guess.

    Same subject different locations, I know of one individual who will be the meat anchor and then jump into a pothole with minimal amount of water. However, his technique has been refined by a lot of practice and that is something I do not even wish to try.

    YMMV and be safe out there.

    bruce from bryce

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Shaun" <trackrunner83@...> wrote:
    I'd agree with Ram. I've seen this spot deep and have seen it very shallow.
    As for the OP question: What would be a good general rule of jumping, i.e. what do you look at or do to determine that its safe to trust gravity?
    I do not jump anything that has not been confirmed for appropriate depth and obstacles right before the jump. This usually involves sending someone down first (usually on rappel) and checking. Then if I do jump I only jump the the landing zone that is confirmed OK so that I don't accidentally land on any boulders that were not checked.
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@> wrote:



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@> wrote:


    > Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last

    rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.


    Yeah, people do it all the time. It's pretty fun, easy, though I suppose has its risks. Definitely helps with making carrying technical gear through Subway unnecessary.


    I think this spot in Subway may have the most leg injuries of any spot on the plateau. Likely due to numbers and experience level being low. Nevertheless the sand deposits and scours regularly, so not bringing a harness on a given day seems quite risky to me. Smallish target too and 5 miles from help. YMMV
    Ram
    >
  19. rickinlo

    rickinlo Guest

    > I think this spot in Subway may have the most leg injuries of any spot on the plateau. Likely due to numbers and experience level being low. Nevertheless the sand deposits and scours regularly, so not bringing a harness on a given day seems quite risky to me. Smallish target too and 5 miles from help. YMMV > Ram

    I was plenty deep, but I suppose things do fill in. Then again that same drop is pretty downclimbable...

    ...Not that I'd recommend either of those options.
  20. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Also, from above, the pools look quite a bit deeper than they actually are. As Ram points out, working from memory is also fraught with misadventure, as the sand moves in and out of those pools on a regular basis.

    FIRST time I did the Subway, saw some "kids" (ie, 25 yr old men) doing the jump, 12 feet into 4 feet of water, then running around to do it again!

    Of the various rappels in the Subway, the downclimb for this one, back toward the Waterfall room, is among the easiest and safest.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "rickinlo" <rickinlo@> wrote:

    > Curious: has anybody tried to jump from the high ledge (the last
    > rappel/handline) into a pothole in Subway? Seems like it could work.

    Yeah, people do it all the time. It's pretty fun, easy, though I suppose has its risks. Definitely helps with making carrying technical gear through Subway unnecessary.
    > I think this spot in Subway may have the most leg injuries of any spot on the plateau. Likely due to numbers and experience level being low. Nevertheless the sand deposits and scours regularly, so not bringing a harness on a given day seems quite risky to me. Smallish target too and 5 miles from help. YMMV > Ram >
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