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Information Brochure - Group Size

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by Charles Wyman, Nov 2, 2000.

  1. maximum size per guide should be 3. any more increase risk and detracts from the experience. ccw

    Tom Jones wrote:

    > A big problem in Zion, where some family groups get up to 12. There > are a lot of groups - boy scouts, Arizona Mountain Club, etc. - that > bring down groups of 12 with only 1 competent person. (OK, I'm being > generous) so splitting these groups into smaller outfits would be > difficult.
    However, we are not writing regulations, only recommendations.
    MHO: "Maximum group size of 6 for technical canyons. Larger groups > are exceedingly slow, and are difficult for other people in the > canyon. Large groups should split into traveling units of 6, and > leave an hour between starts."
    Something like that, I ain't no riter.
    Tom
    On Fri, 03 November 2000, "Charly Oliver" wrote:

    > I would like to comment on one part of Koen's post re: "Descenso de
    > Barrancos".

    Group Size

    I know Zion approves of groups of "up to 12 people" but I think > groups of
    this size have no place in canyons. To clarify, I have no problem > with 12
    people in a canyon at the same time, I just think it is wrong for 12 > people
    to travel as one group.

    A better solution would be six groups of two or even four groups of > three.
    By their nature these smaller groups move faster and more > efficiently and so
    avoid bottle necks, particularly if everyone knows what they are > doing. If
    one group wishes to move faster than the group ahead of them they > can simply
    "play through". It's no problem for small groups to pass each other, > but a
    group of twelve?

    As soon as you get four or more people in one group, things slow > down
    considerably. A trained guide can move six people fairly quickly but > as
    groups get much bigger they become a danger to themselves and > everyone else
    in the canyon.

    My point?

    Although the park may approve of a group being as large as twelve > people and
    issue permits accordingly, I do not think we should recommend > canyoners
    traveling in groups of this size. Besides being noisy and more > difficult to
    control, a large group can not move as quickly and efficiently as > smaller
    groups. Additionally, if the group is inexperienced it can > potentially be
    very dangerous, to itself as well as everyone else in the canyon.

    In this brochure we should recommend smaller group sizes.

    How does everyone else feel?

    Charly


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto:pocoloco@skynet.be]
    Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 8:00 AM
    To: canyons@egroups.com Subject: Re: [canyons group] Information Brochure


    Flash Flood awareness/prevention: the best way to drive this home > real
    good
    is to include a photo of the same spot before and during a flood. > I think
    this should be obligatory content of EVERY publication concerning > canyons.
    One (in this case two) picture says more than a thousand words. > Every
    "cowboy" who I have shown pictures like this is always a lot > quieter
    afterwards. . . most people don't have a clue of nature's force in > these
    places.

    For material : I think it makes sense to advise people to take > enough rope
    to install the highest rappel double-rope AND carry a thinner > spare rope,
    single-lenght of the highest rappel, which always stays with the > last
    person. Include helmets, it's a personal choice but nobody can be > opposed
    to
    advising one.

    I tought of faxing Rich a copy of the leaflet that the Regional > Government
    of Aragon/Spain distributes concerning the "Descenso de > Barrancos". But
    because it's in Spanish I have to translate it anyway (I think) so > I'll
    just
    throw it in the group.

    RECOMENDATIONS FOR THE DESCENT OF CANYONS:

    Steps to follow before the descent:

    * Let people know where you're going.
    * Inform yourself correctly concerning the nature and difficulties > of the
    canyon.
    * Evaluate properly your own technical and physical abilities.
    * Do not form big groups to avoid "traffic jams". In case of > emergency
    this
    can be very dangerous.
    * Start your descent at a safe hour.
    * Do not attempt a descent during unstable weather. In case of
    thunderstorm,
    the waterlevel can rise
    several meters very quickly.
    * Do not attempt a descent with high water levels.
    * Always take the appropriate equipment : spare rope, neoprene > suit, a
    belt
    with rappelling gear for
    each person, food, lighting, dry clothes. (take note that they > do not
    mention a helmet, this not being
    obligatory for the insurance, even when guiding groups).

    Steps to follow during the descent:

    * Go along discreetly and silently, without disturbing the > wildlife nor
    damaging plants.
    * Respect and take care of the environment, do not leave graffiti > or
    scribble on rocks. Do not leave
    rubbish.
    * Do not jump in water before you have checked the bottom (jumping > taking
    care of more then 90 % of
    all canyoning-accidents in Europe).
    * Always stay together (after a number of people got lost and even > died
    after getting separated from
    their group).
    * Do not use more time then necessary, in case of emergency or bad > weather
    (for me this is an
    important part of every course I give : going fast in a safe > way).
    * Repect other canyoneers. Do not be the source of a queue.

    CANYONEERING IS A "DEPORTE DE RIESGO" - RISKY BUSINESS (how do you
    > translate
    this ?!?)

    FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, BEFORE GOING OUT ON YOUR OWN YOU SHOULD :

    * Hire a guide (hear, hear)
    * Enroll yourselves in courses given by mountain federations or > sport
    clubs
    (also hear,hear)

    On the back a list with usefull telephone numbers: tourist info, > police,
    rescue services, red cross, office of the park services and > government.
    On the big parking lots of the Sierra de Guara these points are > repeated
    on
    sign boards.

    I hope this is of some use, I think most of us will agree that > these
    points
    are all just plain common sense. This list can be made a lot > longer - or
    very short, depending on the mentality or terrain encountered.

    Koen

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Rich Carlson rcwild@wildernessmail.net
    > To: canyons@egroups.com
    > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 1:47 PM
    Subject: [canyons group] Information Brochure


    > The poll regarding safety issues is closed. We are now seeking > some
    > clarification and details on some of the issues for inclusion in > the
    > information brochure. The brochure cannot be big enough to teach
    > > every aspect of canyoneering safety. Instead it will attempt to
    > create awareness of the issues - hopefully with enought impact > that
    > those who recognize that they are lacking certain skills will > seek
    > instruction or advice or a guide. Even if you do not have input > on
    > every topic, please address as many as you can.

    > > 12 votes - Flash Flood Awareness, 9.45%
    > Is it enough to simply state "watch out for flash floods", or
    > > should we explain the factors to consider - weather upstream, > size of
    > watershed, surface slope, etc.? Should there be examples of > accidents
    > (deaths) to drive home the seriousness of the topic? Your ideas?
    >
    > > 12 votes - Appropriate Equipment, 9.45%
    > What equipment in particular? Rope length? Helmet? Technical > gear?
    > Nontechnical gear? Your ideas?

    > > 8 votes - Anchor Evaluation, 6.30%
    > Natural and fixed? Check out http://www.safeclimbing.org for > some
    > ideas.

    > > 8 votes - Accurate Canyon Beta, 6.30%
    > Should we be specific - "some guidebook authors tend to be > overly
    > optimistic regarding time requirements", "never rely on a > guidebook
    > without checking against a good topo map" ?

    > > 7 votes - Flash Flood Avoidance, 5.51%
    > Ties in with awareness. Stay out of canyon when risk is high. > Know
    > seasonal weather patterns in area (plan trip early in day if
    > afternoon showers are common). Your ideas?

    > > 7 votes - Appropriate Attire, 5.51%
    > For both hot weather and cold. Neoprene in cold water. Your > ideas?

    > > 7 votes - Knowing Personal Limits, 5.51%
    > Physical limits. Skill level. Your ideas?

    > > 6 votes - Basic Rope Skills, 4.72%
    > 6 votes - Specialized Rope Skills, 4.72%
    > Tied with 6 votes each. Addressed together simply as rope > skills.
    > Something about "the rope skills needed for safe canyoneering go
    > > beyond basic knot tying and rappelling"? Your ideas?

    > > 6 votes - Water Skills, 4.72%
    > Swimming? Jumping? Rappelling into water? Your ideas?

    > > 6 votes - Proper Anchor Use, 4.72%
    > When I wrote the poll questions I thought of "anchor > evaluation"
    > as judging the strength of the tree/chockstone/bolt and "anchor > use"
    > as proper equalization, avoiding girth hitches and American
    > Triangles,
    > etc. Your ideas?

    > > 6 votes - Navigation Skills, 4.72%
    > Can't teach land nav 101, but issues specific to > canyoneering.
    > i.e. inability to see landmarks, need to accurately identify > exits.
    > Your ideas?

    > > 6 votes - Good Old Common Sense, 4.72%
    > Problem with common sense is it just isn't very common.

    > > 5 votes - Misjudging Time Requirements, 3.94%
    > 5 votes - Misjudging Difficulty, 3.94%
    > Tied with 5 votes each. Addressed together. Perhaps with > Accurage
    > Canyon Beta? Your ideas?

    > > 5 votes - Hypothermia, 3.94%
    > Some statistics? Water robs body heat at rate 25X faster than > air
    > of same temperature. Sneaks up on you. Your ideas?

    > > 3 votes - Flash Flood Response, 2.36%
    > What to do. High ground. Can't outrun. Should constantly look > for
    > high ground and escapes just in case. Your ideas?

    > > 3 votes - Hyperthermia/Dehydration, 2.36%
    > Heat injuries (heat cramps, heat exhaustion, heat stroke).
    > Importance of adequate water intake, even in shaded canyon. Your
    > > ideas?

    > > 3 votes - Proper Bolt Placement, 2.36%
    > Not instruction, but relating the importance of doing it > right.

    > > 3 votes - Technical Rescue Skills, 2.36%
    > Emphasize difficulty in securing organized rescue. > Self-rescue for
    > simple problems. Ascending. Your ideas?

    > > 2 votes - Survival Skills, 1.57%
    > 1 votes - First Aid Skills, 0.79%
    > These two received the fewest votes, but should still be
    > acknowledged. "911 will not be an option - be prepared to take > care
    > of yourselves" ?? Your ideas?

    > > Thank you in advance for your input.

    > > Rich

    >
    >
    >
    > > Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association
    > http://www.canyoneering.net
    >
    > > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group?
    > Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.

    > > DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email
    > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.

    > > WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you
    > must visit the web site to view messages.

    >
    >


    > eGroups Sponsor


    Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association
    http://www.canyoneering.net

    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group?
    Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.

    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email
    to you each day summarizing that day's messages.

    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you
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    Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association
    http://www.canyoneering.net

    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group?
    Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.

    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email
    to you each day summarizing that day's messages.

    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you
    must visit the web site to view messages.

    Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
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  2. Tom Jones

    Tom Jones Guest

    A big problem in Zion, where some family groups get up to 12. There are a lot of groups - boy scouts, Arizona Mountain Club, etc. - that bring down groups of 12 with only 1 competent person. (OK, I'm being generous) so splitting these groups into smaller outfits would be difficult.

    However, we are not writing regulations, only recommendations.

    MHO: "Maximum group size of 6 for technical canyons. Larger groups are exceedingly slow, and are difficult for other people in the canyon. Large groups should split into traveling units of 6, and leave an hour between starts."

    Something like that, I ain't no riter.

    Tom

    On Fri, 03 November 2000, "Charly Oliver" wrote:


    I would like to comment on one part of Koen's post re: "Descenso de > Barrancos".
    Group Size
    I know Zion approves of groups of "up to 12 people" but I think groups of > this size have no place in canyons. To clarify, I have no problem with 12 > people in a canyon at the same time, I just think it is wrong for 12 people > to travel as one group.
    A better solution would be six groups of two or even four groups of three. > By their nature these smaller groups move faster and more efficiently and so > avoid bottle necks, particularly if everyone knows what they are doing. If > one group wishes to move faster than the group ahead of them they can simply > "play through". It's no problem for small groups to pass each other, but a > group of twelve?
    As soon as you get four or more people in one group, things slow down > considerably. A trained guide can move six people fairly quickly but as > groups get much bigger they become a danger to themselves and everyone else > in the canyon.
    My point?
    Although the park may approve of a group being as large as twelve people and > issue permits accordingly, I do not think we should recommend canyoners > traveling in groups of this size. Besides being noisy and more difficult to > control, a large group can not move as quickly and efficiently as smaller > groups. Additionally, if the group is inexperienced it can potentially be > very dangerous, to itself as well as everyone else in the canyon.
    In this brochure we should recommend smaller group sizes.
    How does everyone else feel?
    Charly
    > -----Original Message----- > From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto:pocoloco@skynet.be] > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 8:00 AM > To: canyons@egroups.com Flash Flood awareness/prevention: the best way to drive this home real > good > is to include a photo of the same spot before and during a flood. I think > this should be obligatory content of EVERY publication concerning canyons. > One (in this case two) picture says more than a thousand words. Every > "cowboy" who I have shown pictures like this is always a lot quieter > afterwards. . . most people don't have a clue of nature's force in these > places.
    For material : I think it makes sense to advise people to take enough rope > to install the highest rappel double-rope AND carry a thinner spare rope, > single-lenght of the highest rappel, which always stays with the last > person. Include helmets, it's a personal choice but nobody can be opposed > to > advising one.
    I tought of faxing Rich a copy of the leaflet that the Regional Government > of Aragon/Spain distributes concerning the "Descenso de Barrancos". But > because it's in Spanish I have to translate it anyway (I think) so I'll > just > throw it in the group.
    RECOMENDATIONS FOR THE DESCENT OF CANYONS:
    Steps to follow before the descent:
    * Let people know where you're going. > * Inform yourself correctly concerning the nature and difficulties of the > canyon. > * Evaluate properly your own technical and physical abilities. > * Do not form big groups to avoid "traffic jams". In case of emergency > this > can be very dangerous. > * Start your descent at a safe hour. > * Do not attempt a descent during unstable weather. In case of > thunderstorm, > the waterlevel can rise > several meters very quickly. > * Do not attempt a descent with high water levels. > * Always take the appropriate equipment : spare rope, neoprene suit, a > belt > with rappelling gear for > each person, food, lighting, dry clothes. (take note that they do not > mention a helmet, this not being > obligatory for the insurance, even when guiding groups).
    Steps to follow during the descent:
    * Go along discreetly and silently, without disturbing the wildlife nor > damaging plants. > * Respect and take care of the environment, do not leave graffiti or > scribble on rocks. Do not leave > rubbish. > * Do not jump in water before you have checked the bottom (jumping taking > care of more then 90 % of > all canyoning-accidents in Europe). > * Always stay together (after a number of people got lost and even died > after getting separated from > their group). > * Do not use more time then necessary, in case of emergency or bad weather > (for me this is an > important part of every course I give : going fast in a safe way). > * Repect other canyoneers. Do not be the source of a queue.
    CANYONEERING IS A "DEPORTE DE RIESGO" - RISKY BUSINESS (how do you > translate > this ?!?)
    FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY, BEFORE GOING OUT ON YOUR OWN YOU SHOULD :
    * Hire a guide (hear, hear) > * Enroll yourselves in courses given by mountain federations or sport > clubs > (also hear,hear)
    On the back a list with usefull telephone numbers: tourist info, police, > rescue services, red cross, office of the park services and government. > On the big parking lots of the Sierra de Guara these points are repeated > on > sign boards.
    I hope this is of some use, I think most of us will agree that these > points > are all just plain common sense. This list can be made a lot longer - or > very short, depending on the mentality or terrain encountered.
    Koen
    ----- Original Message ----- > From: Rich Carlson rcwild@wildernessmail.net
    To: canyons@egroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 1:47 PM > Subject: [canyons group] Information Brochure
    > > The poll regarding safety issues is closed. We are now seeking some > > clarification and details on some of the issues for inclusion in the > > information brochure. The brochure cannot be big enough to teach > > every aspect of canyoneering safety. Instead it will attempt to > > create awareness of the issues - hopefully with enought impact that > > those who recognize that they are lacking certain skills will seek > > instruction or advice or a guide. Even if you do not have input on > > every topic, please address as many as you can. >
    > 12 votes - Flash Flood Awareness, 9.45% > > Is it enough to simply state "watch out for flash floods", or > > should we explain the factors to consider - weather upstream, size of > > watershed, surface slope, etc.? Should there be examples of accidents > > (deaths) to drive home the seriousness of the topic? Your ideas? >
    > 12 votes - Appropriate Equipment, 9.45% > > What equipment in particular? Rope length? Helmet? Technical gear? > > Nontechnical gear? Your ideas? >
    > 8 votes - Anchor Evaluation, 6.30% > > Natural and fixed? Check out http://www.safeclimbing.org for some > > ideas. >
    > 8 votes - Accurate Canyon Beta, 6.30% > > Should we be specific - "some guidebook authors tend to be overly > > optimistic regarding time requirements", "never rely on a guidebook > > without checking against a good topo map" ? >
    > 7 votes - Flash Flood Avoidance, 5.51% > > Ties in with awareness. Stay out of canyon when risk is high. Know > > seasonal weather patterns in area (plan trip early in day if > > afternoon showers are common). Your ideas? >
    > 7 votes - Appropriate Attire, 5.51% > > For both hot weather and cold. Neoprene in cold water. Your ideas? >
    > 7 votes - Knowing Personal Limits, 5.51% > > Physical limits. Skill level. Your ideas? >
    > 6 votes - Basic Rope Skills, 4.72% > > 6 votes - Specialized Rope Skills, 4.72% > > Tied with 6 votes each. Addressed together simply as rope skills. > > Something about "the rope skills needed for safe canyoneering go > > beyond basic knot tying and rappelling"? Your ideas? >
    > 6 votes - Water Skills, 4.72% > > Swimming? Jumping? Rappelling into water? Your ideas? >
    > 6 votes - Proper Anchor Use, 4.72% > > When I wrote the poll questions I thought of "anchor evaluation" > > as judging the strength of the tree/chockstone/bolt and "anchor use" > > as proper equalization, avoiding girth hitches and American > > Triangles, > > etc. Your ideas? >
    > 6 votes - Navigation Skills, 4.72% > > Can't teach land nav 101, but issues specific to canyoneering. > > i.e. inability to see landmarks, need to accurately identify exits. > > Your ideas? >
    > 6 votes - Good Old Common Sense, 4.72% > > Problem with common sense is it just isn't very common. >
    > 5 votes - Misjudging Time Requirements, 3.94% > > 5 votes - Misjudging Difficulty, 3.94% > > Tied with 5 votes each. Addressed together. Perhaps with Accurage > > Canyon Beta? Your ideas? >
    > 5 votes - Hypothermia, 3.94% > > Some statistics? Water robs body heat at rate 25X faster than air > > of same temperature. Sneaks up on you. Your ideas? >
    > 3 votes - Flash Flood Response, 2.36% > > What to do. High ground. Can't outrun. Should constantly look for > > high ground and escapes just in case. Your ideas? >
    > 3 votes - Hyperthermia/Dehydration, 2.36% > > Heat injuries (heat cramps, heat exhaustion, heat stroke). > > Importance of adequate water intake, even in shaded canyon. Your > > ideas? >
    > 3 votes - Proper Bolt Placement, 2.36% > > Not instruction, but relating the importance of doing it right. >
    > 3 votes - Technical Rescue Skills, 2.36% > > Emphasize difficulty in securing organized rescue. Self-rescue for > > simple problems. Ascending. Your ideas? >
    > 2 votes - Survival Skills, 1.57% > > 1 votes - First Aid Skills, 0.79% > > These two received the fewest votes, but should still be > > acknowledged. "911 will not be an option - be prepared to take care > > of yourselves" ?? Your ideas? >
    > Thank you in advance for your input. >
    > Rich >



    > Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > > http://www.canyoneering.net

    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > > Don't unsubscribe; change your email options. >
    > DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > > to you each day summarizing that day's messages. >
    > WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > > must visit the web site to view messages. >



    eGroups Sponsor
    > Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.

    >

    Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
    > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don't unsubscribe; change your email options.
    DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day's messages.
    WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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