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Hydration

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by hank moon, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    Nutrition & hydration: gear for the older set?

    I just ran across these articles on hydration... haven't had time to read them yet, but would like to discuss them with cc folks eventually. The first one is really long - possibly one only Tom could finish? :)

    Please post your thoughts/observations/experiences with hydration-related fluids, powders and foods. This thread is not intended to discuss the vessels.

    http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e4737

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...t-high-tech-sports-fuel-in-favor-of-real-food

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/07/the-controversial-science-of-sports-drinks/260124/
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  2. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Good topic, Hank, thanks. Observations from the field:

    1. There is a big difference between places with unlimited resources (the sideline in a football game, your local 7-11) and places with strictly limited resources (like in a canyon). Most 'hydration drinks' have a bunch of sugar in them which makes you pee. Even at half-strength they make you pee. Gatorade is not a good thing to drink when you are canyoneering.

    2. Drinking plain water does not work. Mechanisms for bringing water into the body work much better when there are some carbohydrates in your stomach at the same time. Therefore, generally, when you drink you must also eat, at least a little bit.

    3. Especially in the desert, your body does not provide appropriate feedback that can be relied upon to provide accurate information. In other words, you will need to think, because the signals from your body are insufficient. Plan your hydration, work the plan.

    4. Here are some signs of dehydration: dizziness, nausea (making it undesirable to eat food, see #2 above), vomiting (especially vomiting that does not produce very much), lack of energy. You can become severely dehydrated without knowing it, but unexplainable vomiting is a clear sign of dehydration. See: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave...canyon-almost-canyoneering-trip-april-1-2012/

    5. Good Electrolyte additions: Vitalyte. I have been using Vitalyte with a great deal of success the last couple of years. It is designed by runners, and while it has sucrose in it, it does not have much. After a day in the canyons, I make myself drink a quart of vitalyte - and this helps a LOT! If I carry three quarts of water for the day, I try to make the middle quart Vitalyte. Their new packaging is 1 Pint packages, and I put this into a quart of water and call it good, for during the day.

    6. Good Electrolyte addition #2: Elete. Elete is just salt water, in a small bottle. It lives in the lid of my pack, and is always there. Squirt some drops into your water, and get some of those salts back into the system. I think it helps. EZ, convenient, inexpensive.

    7. I also like having plain water on hand. Sometimes pouring a few ounces of water over your head is a really good idea.

    8. Bottle vs. Tanks: Hank said... whatever! Bottles allow careful rationing of water resources, which is important. Your thirst is a poor way of managing limited resources - when you wear a tank, you tend to sip whenever you are thirsty => drinking too much => peeing too much => wasted water => not enough water later in the day. Bottles RULE! Gatorade bottles work great and are light weight... but that spectacularly colored liquid should only be drunk in places where there is lots of water available.

    9. I love COFFEE! But for days in the field, I don't drink it in the morning. It gives me dry mouth pretty much all day long when I do, which tempts me to drink way too much water. Lord, lead me NOT to temptation...

    :moses:
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  3. Mike Zampino

    Mike Zampino Canyon season never ends.

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    You can tell when #2 above happens because your stomach sloshes around with water that is not being brought into the body.

    A key thing to remember is that hydration begins a day or two before you go out on a long outting. It's not a good idea to go out drinking the night before as you will then start out deydrated.

    In my adventure racing days we would sometimes set a watch to go off at regular intervals to remind us to eat and drink. The goal was to minimize any peaks and valleys in your performance and above all to keep from bonking.

    I have used several electrolyte additives:
    - Ultima Replenisher: zero sugars all natural. didn't taste very good (I can say that now they are no longer a sponsor :D), but worked very well
    - Carb Boom: A more recent sponsor. Not bad tasting, but does contain sucrose (ingrediant #2)
    - Heed by Hammer Nutrition: Low sugar...cannot remember how it tastes.
    - Endurolytes capsules: Sometimes I will take these with just plain water. I like it because no taste to worry about.
    - E Lyte sport: Good stuff. No Sugar. Makes water taste salty, but it's tolerable (sounds like it is similar to #6 above)
    - Others: Gu Brew, Cytomax (both swag bag freebies)

    I will usually have one bottle for an electrolyte and one plain water.
    Tanks have their place. If you are one to not take the time to get out the bottle until you are thirsty, then maybe a tank is a better way to go. But like Tom says it is hard to monitor. Racing I always used a tank because there was no time to stop. In canyoneering mostly only use bottles.
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  4. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    https://www.nutritionaction.com/daily/exercise-for-health/what-to-know-about-electrolyte-waters/

    What to know about electrolyte waters

    “Propel Electrolyte Water is made with more electrolytes than any other national water to support next level hydration,” says Propel. “Whether it’s post-workout or post night out, Vita Coco has electrolytes like potassium to help replenish you,” says VitaCoco.com.

    “If you want to hold on to fluid, you need to consume electrolytes,” explains Sam Cheuvront, a physiologist at the U.S. Army Research Institute or Environmental Medicine, who notes that his views are not official U.S. Army of Defense Department policy. That’s because sodium, potassium, and other electrolytes help keep fluid in your cells and blood. “If you just consume water, you’ll retain some of it, but you’ll also excrete a lot of it.”

    But for most people, electrolytes are a non-issue. “There’s no need to consume extra electrolytes until you’ve been doing intense exercise for more than an hour,” says Cheuvront.

    What if you exercise long enough to be drenched in sweat?

    “It just so happens that we often consume fluids when we consume food, which has electrolytes,” adds Cheuvront. Problem solved!

    At least Propel replaces what you lose in sweat. Many electrolyte waters add just a touch of electrolytes for taste.

    What about potassium-rich coconut water?

    Vita Coco is a good source of potassium—470 milligrams per cup. That’s a plus, since most people don’t get close to the recommended 4,700 mg a day.

    But potassium alone isn’t ideal if you’re in a rush to rehydrate after several hours of exercise. “You lose far less potassium than sodium in sweat,” says Cheuvront. And coconut water is low in sodium. (That’s a plus for blood pressure, but not for rehydrating.)

    In two studies (one funded by Gatorade) on a total of 22 healthy young people, the volunteers drank plain water, coconut water, or a sports drink after exercising in 90º heat until they were dehydrated.
    In one of the studies, the volunteers retained slightly more fluid (65 percent) from the coconut water over two hours than from the plain water (59 percent). In the other study, there was no difference. In both studies, the participants retained 68 percent of the fluid from the sports drink (which contained both sodium and potassium).

    For most people, those differences are irrelevant.

    Bottom line: After most exercise bouts, you can replenish your electrolytes with food and plain water.
  5. W.B.

    W.B.

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    Been using Vitalyte since it was Gookinaid ERG in the 80's. I'd concur with Tom in not necessarily drinking it exclusively but having it as a part of your hydration seems to help protect against symptoms of dehydration and heat stress. Used it many times to revive partners who went past their limits. It is the best thing I have ever used to help prevent and ease headaches when exerting yourself in hot weather. Since it comes as a powder you can make it to any strength you choose.

    I agree also with getting seriously hydrated before you start. Keep the food and water coming and start early, once you run out you slow down

    Foodwise, I prefer real food. Bars and the ilk just are not satisfying.

    As Tom says, having enough water to pour over yourself can be really refreshing.

    I can't stand Gatorade, but I might prefer it to coconut water which just tastes foul.
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  6. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Bill was helpful with product (Gookinaid at the time) for a trip I did in the mid 90's. Have always been grateful. And continue to use the product.

    I drink Gatoraid, but, G2 only. The full strength stuff...not a problem with #1, its the #2 cleanse that I'd rather avoid...
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  7. Kip Marshall

    Kip Marshall Bshwakr

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    So many factors to take into account such as age, the sport, weight, environmental acclimation, body chemistry and general fitness level. It's best to start conservatively and figure out what works for you, especially in the desert heat.

    I still take a liter of Gator-aid but prefer Hammer Nutrition products; make you feel like superman. Recently, I've started making my own homemade energy/electrolyte gel with ingredients like Honey, Molasses, salt, etc. But I still drink lots of water with it.

    I can't gag down another Powerbar or Cliffbar; I now favor foods on the trail which I actually will eat. Pita/Hummus/Fruit Pies/Salami/Fritos/candy, but everyone is different.

    I also really like chocolate milk for recovery but it doesn't fare so well in the heat.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
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  8. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Thanks for bumping this thread, very informative "hands on" information.
    My 2¢ in reverse order...
    So true. And most the time it's a combination of all the above. The days of feeling 100% are few and far between, managing the now becomes a unique individual struggle/science.

    Yes, gotta avoid the sugars at all cost for some of us. However, recent studies suggest that artificial sweeteners (sucralose, acesulfame potassium, etc) are/can-be just as harmful. They may not be "sugar", but the body doesn't know that and produces insulin just the same. What's a diabetic gotta do to catch a break these days??

    And Tom's pragmatic advice/approach is superb - as usual. Even if it was posted 5yrs ago....sheesh where does the time go!

    Pass the salt, please.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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  9. townsend

    townsend

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    Kuenn,

    Can you post an article for me to read about artificial sweeteners inducing the body to produce insulin (as if one consumed sugar)? I hadn't heard that, though not a peer-reviewed scientific study, I read in a discussion forum the contrary: https://www.quora.com/Do-artificial-sweeteners-trigger-the-same-insulin-response-as-sugar
    Note that at least one poster is insulin dependent, and he denies that artificial sweeteners induce insulin response from the pancreas.

    If the article is published in a reputable medical or scientific journal, we can be assured it is based on good science.

    Thanks.

    Scott
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  10. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Easy google search spray:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2887500

    "The effect of Acesulfame K on insulin secretion was similar to that observed by injecting or infusing the same doses of glucose."

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diab...rtificial-sweeteners-cause-insulin-resistance

    https://www.alliedacademies.org/art...-andglucose-in-healthy-nondiabetic-adults.pdf

    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/9/2530

    "CONCLUSIONS These data demonstrate that sucralose affects the glycemic and insulin responses to an oral glucose load in obese people who do not normally consume NNS."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4990242/

    https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12986-016-0129-3

    "Results
    Diet sodas augmented active GLP-1 (Diet Rite Cola™ vs. seltzer water, AUC, p = 0.039; Diet Mountain Dew™ vs. seltzer water, AUC, p = 0.07), but gastric emptying and satiety were unaffected. Insulin concentrations were nominally higher following all NNS conditions without altering glycemia. Sucralose alone (at any concentration) did not affect metabolic outcomes."

    Seems like pretty easy testing to do...just getting someone to pay for it probably the crux. Certainly not being funded by NNS providers...ha ha.
  11. townsend

    townsend

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    Brian, appreciate you citing all these academic studies. It is a complicated issue, and endrocrinology is not my major!

    What I find perplexing/confusing is, e.g., take the first NCBI study you cite. The sentence goes on to state that though acesulfame K affected insulin secretion in a similar way as glucose, "except that no hyperglycemia was observed with Acesulfame K." And again, in the final quote under Results, it states again that blah blah blah "without altering glycemia."

    I don't know the answer, but NNS are not exactly like sugar in terms of metabolic outcomes (and sucralose seems unique among NNS). We need an diabetologist on Canyon Collective to sort this out. Is there a doctor in the house?
  12. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    Oh no, fact checking. That's going to curtail my post credibility.o_O

    Yes, it's a complicated study, but there is data that supports it, as Brian posted. There is this explanation from the diabetes council that tries to be fair to both sides of the argument.

    Personally, I've found that any sports hydration drink is way too sweet for my palate, artificial or otherwise. Like they make this stuff to satisfy the cravings of a Pixy-Stix-Snorting adolescent. I have to cut them all 1-2 times for consumption. That said, Tom's comment about straight H20 I've found to be true as well. After a few iterations it needs some help to be effective – the law of diminishing returns.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2018
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  13. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    Yeah, ditto the sweet thing. I dilute most of mine probably nearly 50/50.

    Picked up a bag of Wilderness Athlete Hydrate and Recover. Was on sale for fairly cheap. I mix a single packet with a quart/liter of water. I like it. Only 5g of sugar per serving. Seems to answer the mail.

    A lot of times I'll just dilute orange juice with water. Easy and tastes ok.
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  14. cjhaines

    cjhaines Chris

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    That aspartame study on rats is oft cited yet hardly applicable to humans. A common problem we have these days is media outlets picking up articles from peer review journals and then prematurely extrapolating the data to fit the human population in general, without regard for sample size, methodology, etc.

    From another study that includes that rat study in its discussion (this one is about sucralose but includes other sweeteners in its discussion): "Testing methodologies and other factors may limit reliability of extrapolating results of studies discussed above to overall effects on blood glucose control." My point being, a few studies in animals or small sample sizes of humans should not be reason enough to stop using artificial sweeteners.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0273230017301265?via=ihub
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  15. townsend

    townsend

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    My own view, which is just that, is that in general, artificial sweeteners have been over-villified. When used reasonably and sparringly, they most likely do not lead to negative health outcomes. I am referring to the non-diabetic population. I think diabetics need to be especially careful in their diet, and that includes what they drink. Caveat emptor. Just keep both hands on the rope when rappelling. You'll be fine.
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