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Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Doug Smith, May 6, 2017.
LOL. How could you take a pass on the ascending-skills shaming?
So true. ^_^
4 of us total, 2 were green tag-alongs; put them in the middle where they're just along for the ride - FMAR on fireman duty for the greens. Once popped out in Orderville, check energy level of the group; if good, down and out Orderville - if lacking, up and out to the Orderville TH, with one person (me, at the time) hero-hauling it up and out Wild Wind Hollow to snag the vehicle.
The knot was there because with it being his second canyon, he felt more comfortable being lowered from the top by me. So when he got off rope at the bottom, he unclipped his locker from the knot... but then neither of us remembered to undo the knot.
I was minding the green girls and going to set up the next rap; we noticed the knot when it was about 15' off the deck, with no way to get to it. Sucked.
Lessons? Maybe when top-belaying someone, always tie the knot directly into their harness so the knot has to be untied? Be more mindful of everything when you're the only one with experience? Grow up and stop being distracted by girls?
My own worst enemy...
What are "hand ascenders"? Did you mean "handled ascenders"? Also, I've never had to ascend 300' but would not expect my hands to get tired. Is this a common problem with long ascents?
I apologize if my reply came off as insulting. I did not mean to be a smart-ass. I was asking a sincere question about tired hands during long ascents. It is something I would never have expected but now maybe I need to worry about it. Of course, if your comment about your tired hands while using your hand ascenders was meant as humor, please forgive me for being so dense.
I agree, Craig, that the use of the language in this case is silly. They ARE "handled ascenders". Any ascender used with the hands would be a "hand ascender" whether they have handles or not.
There are lots of different ways to rig for climbing the rope. Some methods allow a generally relaxed hand position, some require constantly gripping. Being a wimp, I prefer a method that does not require constant gripping.
Charly Oliver has a great story on this issue... though he is off sailing the ocean at the moment.
Au contraire, my reply was pure snark.
When all you have are ascenders you operate by hand, it turns into a bouncy, 8 inches at a time, slow hump up a rope. Imagine holding a crunch, while doing one-armed pullups, while in direct sun, for 20 minutes straight (I was surprised it only took me 20, felt like an hour); and you can't stop to rest, because you don't have a chest harness to help you stay vertical, so you'd just be burning out your abs; and you don't have a way to help you stay vertical because you're a moron who only packed hand ascenders and had to use them because you were busy helping greenhorn Finnish broads that have no business being in Englestad in the first place, but found their way their because of your own hubris.
Your post was fine, sir.
Hubris or hormones?
I think you can maybe thank (blame) arborists for the term "hand ascender". A lot of tree techniques are borrowed from cavers and SRT climbing. Ascenders are typically named for where they're attached to (or near) on the body. So, you get "chest ascender", "foot/ankle ascender", "knee ascender", etc. (Knee ascenders are an odd one because they're not even attached to the knee, but float between the foot and harness.)
Except, with cavers, it doesn't seem that "hand ascender" has ever been a term in common use - they seem to stick with the old trade name Jumar, like a lot of climbers. All the others show up in old Nylon Highway issues going back 20-30 years, are well-established.
Sorry - a bit off topic, but couldn't resist the bait, always been fascinated with how climbing terminology changes and it bounces around disciplines. Never would have thought "hand ascender" would raise an eyebrow.
A tale told around a Yosemite campfire long ago...
An experienced 'wall rat' was working on an El Cap route and had fixed rope for about 800 feet on the lower wall.
His partners bailed so he descended to the valley and recruited a strong looking 'noob' to ascend the ropes with him and continue the route.
Our wall rat jumared the multiple fixed rope lengths (many of them over-hung) followed by his new found protege.
Upon reaching the high point on a small ledge he asked the 'noob' how he felt about his first rope 'jugging' experience.
The 'noob' replied that it was cool, but for the last couple hundred feet he had become really concerned about his hands letting go.
It was then that the wall rat noticed the noob had no harness on
just foot loops and a death grip on his
What about using webbing as a pullcord? I've done this in emergencies but have always wonder if this is a viable option. Also have wondered if you can rappel on webbing..?
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Viable, yes. But why? Other than the emergency you mentioned.
Webbing can be rapped on with an "8" type device, but again, no reason to other than in an emergency.
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Webbing can jam considerably more easily than rope. Saw it happen to woefully unprepared hikers this weekend.
EDK is a bad knot for different diameter ropes.
More so, if it's blocked against the ring so the knot just James and that's fine.
But if you rap on both sides then the knot can come undone.
Now up to how much difference it can take it varies in knotbility as well, bu EDK does not cope well with differences...
Do you have a citation on that?
A couple clarifications:
"EDK" for most people here means a stacked overhand EDK.
We rarely use Knot blocks here, we usually clove a carabiner into the line and use that as the block, often with the knot nearby.
This one i found quickly, but i do remember reading more.
Look at test 17 http://web.archive.org/web/20070927040547/http://www.snowdonia-adventures.co.uk/EDK-Table.htm
Related (especially the YouTube video): http://canyoncollective.com/threads/winter-time-to-practice-and-learn-knots.23996/#post-102866
@Shmulik The test #17 you referenced in another post features 10 rolls of the knot prior to failure, all but the 1st roll requiring over 1000 lbf to make the knot roll. Personally, I'd be OK with that level of security anywhere other than Mt. Thor or similar.
The EDK tested on this test is a single EDK. I agree that a single EDK is not generally acceptable. But this is not what MOST people here are using and calling an EDK, I hope.
If you look at what he wrote at the top, he said that on big dropes he does the edk by a single knot-not doubled.