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Tech Tip: Question How we are using 6mm Pull-Ropes?

Discussion in 'Tech Tips and Gear' started by Doug Smith, May 6, 2017.

  1. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    Been using Imlay Canyon Gear 6mm Pull-Ropes for about two years now. For about the last year we have been adding the Pull into the Rappelling device (Pirana and Sqwurel) when descending most of the time on big rappels. We always rig the knot so our weight is on the 9.2mm rope like normal. It helps keep the knot from getting stuck in big rap rings. I will add a smaller Rapids/Quick if needed. It also adds a little more friction on the rappel. It wares out the pull cords faster for sure (have already cut one 200 pull into a 80 & 120). What do you think? We will also use the 6mm doubled up on 20-40 foot rappel and Meat anchors on short drops to speed things up setting up ropes. I know ICG Pull-Ropes are rated to rappel on, have only used Tom's pull-ropes. My experience has been it makes us safer and have less issue pulling ropes with knots at the the top. We can set the knot over and edge at the top in necessary. We use the EDK with a back up to tie our ropes together unless it look to be a really tight rope pull then no back up. I know on bigger rappels 100-200 with free sections it's nice to have that little bit of extra friction. We need to go single line above 200 feet with the ropes I have now. Can you think of a Issue/Problem of using this techie would cause other then wearing out you pull-rope?

    Got to use my Sand Trap and Potshots in Egypt 1.5 about a week ago for the first time for real. Everything Worked great need to try Fooling Around sometime soon, sound like it's a good starter canyon for that kind of Ghosting. Seems like this canyon got a bunch of sand flashed out of it. It was way harder then then my beta made it sound. But We had Too Much Fun!

    Doug Smith
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  2. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Agent Smith...

    You are using Knot Blocks, which I have not had good luck with, the knot pulling into the ring and getting stuck. So I no longer use Knot Blocks, using Carabiner blocks exclusively. Or double-line (but don't tell anyone).

    The strength of the pull-CORD is OK, but it will cut much much much easier over an edge than an actual rope. Sure, once in a while, when a rope is not available, when there is a compelling reason to do so, rapping on the pull cord doubled or quadrupled is safe(ish). But I discourage this.

    Wee canyoneers use single strand for a couple reasons, the most important being that it allows top-rescue when needed, in the rare case that canyoneers are trained in these techniques. Other than that, single strand is good because it keeps the ropes from twisting (especially long, free rappels).

    The good SandTrap Canyon in North Wash is No Kidding. Some canyons hold onto sand, and in some it comes and goes.

    The 6mm pull cord is NOT rated to rappel on. I give a strength rating, which is not the same thing.

    But other than those and the wearing out the cord thing, I see no problem with what you are doing, except, ropes of different sizes will run through your device at different rates, so be careful of that. One climber death in Zion due to that, at night. Rappelling off the ends of ropes is not good for your health.

    Agent Jones.
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  3. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    Hadn't though of the ascending the rope thing. The smaller rope would make that harder, but We always block the 9.2 so we would need to switch to just the big rope to ascend. We use a Carabiner block some times but it always seems that having more stuff at the top is a problem. Or the last guy down need to re-rig or an I missing something. I like to go double line too lots lees to get stuck most of the time. Yep, knot blocks can be problematic. How do you set up your block for single line?

    Agent Smith
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  4. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    What other Sand-Trap starter canyons would you suggest?

    I understand your pull-rope strength thing, we use it on only on smaller rappels that are mostly assisted down climbs. No sharp edges is a very good point, we are watching for that.

    Agent Smith
  5. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/biner-blocks-pull-cords-and-all-that-stuff/
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  6. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    I have not noticed much difference in speed of the two ropes through the rappelling device. I assume the smaller would be the fastest, is that true?
    When we have set the Knot over an edge or out away from the anchor with the larger 9.2mm through anchor. It has worked nicely every time did not notices any movement in the knot. It allowing us to pull the rope easily every time. I always bring a few 7mm rapids to donate to the canyon when I find large ones that are in a problematic place to pull the rope.

    I use you system for a biner block, learned it from your site. Hadn't thought enough about rescue from above on a double line, Good point. Single line would be much much easier. Will likely start using a biner block more although the way we rig our larger raps with a pull cord would work too, but it would complicate things.

    Agent Smith
  7. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Difference of feed depends on many variable - size and stiffness differences of the rope and cord; device used; how the device is used; how your karma is.

    Often on long free rappels, the rappeller spins. With both ropes through your device, the ropes will twist around each other. Thus needs to be de-twisted before your pull. I like that you have not yet had this problem.

    Tom
  8. Kuenn

    Kuenn

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    If I'm understanding you correctly, you're suggesting that having the pull cord in the rap device (as if you are rapping double line even though the 9.2 is blocked) is relieving enough pressure at the knot-block that the knot isn't getting "jammed" in the rapid link. Interesting concept.

    I'm not sure I'm following you here. Otherwise wouldn't you be rappelling on the 6mm. What am I misunderstanding?
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  9. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    A deadly issue I could see coming from doing that as common practice is doing it out of habit while your pull cord is attached to a fiddlestick...
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  10. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    We would NEVER put the pull cord in to rappel device using a Smooth Operator/Fiddlestick, Do not want to die! If you can't keep something like that correct you should not be playing with rope.
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  11. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    We rig the rappel just like normal when using a pull cord from the anchor ring using a knot block. I add a skinny rapid if necessary to prevent any chance of the knot pulling into rap ring. All of our weight is on the 9.2 mm rope then we add the pull into rappel device. Don't think this would work well with a ATC/Tube style device, but not sure. There is enough weight on 6mm pull to keep the knot from moving. I have pulled the knot away from the anchor with nothing around it and raped down, it barley moves. We mostly use this when their is an issue with pulling the rope on long rappels and the knot possibly getting stuck. The last guy down moves the knot over/around the edge and raps down and pull the rope. We have successfully done this dozens of times without any issues. I would think the rope with the least friction (small rope) would move through the rappelling device faster but have not seen it happen much yet. When the knot is passed and edge have experienced no movement at all. The down side is you ware out your pull rope much faster, you need to keep an close eye on them.

    Agent
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  12. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    No sane person would purposely do so. S'why I had the "doing it out of habit" bit. Never underestimate your autopilot's ability...
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  13. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    I see your point but when using smooth operator the sequence when doing the rappel is completely different then rappelling off the anchor with a pull. I always try to think things through before doing anything and then do it again to make sure. We use the buddy system to check on what we are doing when possible. Doing anything when Canyoneering/Climbing in autopilot mode is extremely dangerous no matter what you are doing.
  14. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    I think the problem, Agent Smith, is that we fail to see a compelling reason to put the pull cord in the device. There are many ways to get additional friction while rappelling, and they would seem to be, in general, a better way of managing adjusting your friction settings. Different devices, different rigging, different rope... sticking the pull cord into the mix would be pretty low on my list of ways to add friction.

    Tom
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  15. Doug Smith

    Doug Smith

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    Not asking for any of you to do anything? The only thing I asked was can you see anything inherently dangerous with using the pull cord in the way I have explained. If this is the best bad stuff you all can come up with; I'm felling Good. :) Its a tool in the tool box, like most things in Canyoneering & Climbing nothing is a one size fits all. It's not about friction its about not getting the rope stuck in tough situations and it has worked for me without any issues. I will likely use a Biner Block more, but have had bad luck getting thing stuck and damaging the rope when pulling. Maybe it was just bad Karma but I can think of a lot of rappels where it would work nicely and be quicker. Almost everything we do has a down side in this sport and it's up to us to make Good Safe Thoughtful Decisions when playing on tall cliffs with skinny ropes.

    Agent Smith Out
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  16. Scott Patterson

    Scott Patterson

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    How are we using 6mm Pull Ropes

    I might use them to tie canyoneering gear to the top of the Subaru. Or maybe as guy lines for the tent when it's really windy.

    Other than that give me two real ropes! :tongue:
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  17. Deagol

    Deagol too many hobbies

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    I love my 6 MM pull cord.. as a pull cord.

    I recently stuck a rope on a 200 ft rappel due to some odd angles at the top (??). I had to ascend 200 feet back up to fix it on the 9mm "real" rope/ Never had to ascend that far before and it was a workout. I fixed the problem by re-rigging. After rapping down the second time, the rope still wouldn't budge so I put all my weight on it and finally overcame the friction. The pull cord worked like a charm with all that stress on it, by I sure wouldn't want to rap on it.
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  18. Yellow Dart

    Yellow Dart It's only hubris if I fail.

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    Was out with a "friend", it was his second canyon, we're at the bottom of the initial drop of Englestad, he leaves a knot in the end of the rope and pulls it; knot lodges in the anchor.

    300' and only two hand ascenders. I couldn't open doorknobs the next day.
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  19. joeb

    joeb middle aged guy who lies around alot

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    Except for Grand Canyon SufferFests! where it is quickly decided to leave the 9mm workhorse ropes in the car and go with the 8mm and the 6mm pull cord.
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  20. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Engelstead as second canyon - I want to shame you for this, but I know shaming doesn't really work with you. Besides, with more details, it might actually be reasonable. But yeah. Perhaps you understand why I do not put knots in the ends of my rope.

    interesting to note that HE left a knot in the end of the rope, as if you were still in Sdale working on your second Latte...

    T
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