Help Planning a Trip to Buckskin Gulch/Paria Canyon in November

Hello All,

I'm new to forum and am considering a trip to Buckskin Gulch/Paria Canyon in early November. This would be my first experience with canyon hiking out west. I've been doing a lot of reading and internet research, but I thought I'd try this forum to get some "real time" information from canyoneers familiar with the area.

I know this depends a lot on the conditions at particular time of the hike but I'm wondering what the weather conditions are generally like in early November.

I'm imagining sunny days with high temps in 50s/60s and night temps in the canyon around 20 or so. Not a lot of rainfall. Is that correct?

What would be the temperature and depth of the water? I think that's my biggest concern: icy cold water and lots of it. I'm hoping the canyon will be somewhat dry after the rainy summer season.

What kind of footwear would you recommend? I like to do all my hiking in sturdy trail runners (NB 840s) but expect I would need neoprene and wool socks for warmth. Would you also recommend gaiters? Some people have even suggested a wet suit (or is that just unnecessary weight?). I'm not sure what additional gear I'd require outside of normal lightweight backpacking gear.

How many days do you think I should allow for an end-to-end hike from White House to Lee's Ferry and a diversion into Buckskin Gulch? I can comfortably handle 15-20 miles per day backpacking on hilly terrain (Colorado, Yosemite, Appalachian Mountains, etc.) but I'm not sure what to expect with canyon hiking. (I've currently set aside 7 days which, I hope, is conservative).

Also, how much daylight would you expect to have in November?

Thanks in advance for your help.

-Lucinda

Not a lot of rainfall. Is that correct? >

That is usually correct, there is not much rainfall. We do Buckskin/Paria every year in Sept, Oct, or even November. 2 years ago we did it over Thanksgiving weekend and unfortunately dealt with ice flows in the Paria. It was bitterly cold water and rather painful to walk through. We have also experienced 2 trips within days of "biblical" flooding which made it rather fun and interesting. Though we usually go from Wire Pass to White House, the Wire Pass to Lees Ferry is approx. 38 miles and usually takes people from 3 to 5 days depending on conditions and hiking ability. Your side trip up Buckskin can go as far as you like. If you have the time, it's actually quite worth it to go all the way to middle exit to see the Petroglyphs. There is usually a fixed line at the only true "problem" in Buckskin (about 1.5 miles up canyon from the confluence), but if not, there are Moki steps carved into the rock on the far right side (looking up canyon)that one can ascend. Watch the weather carefully days before your trip and you can't help but enjoy yourselves.

> What would be the temperature and depth of the water? I think that's my biggest concern: icy cold water and lots of it. I'm hoping the canyon will be somewhat dry after the rainy summer season. >

If there hasn't been much rain then you won't be in the river too much , but ankle and knee deep is quite common during a "dry spell."

> What kind of footwear would you recommend? I like to do all my hiking in sturdy trail runners (NB 840s) but expect I would need neoprene and wool socks for warmth. Would you also recommend gaiters? Some people have even suggested a wet suit (or is that just unnecessary weight?). I'm not sure what additional gear I'd require outside of normal lightweight backpacking gear. >

Any kind of hiking shoe that you are comfortable in, don't mind wearing soaking wet for an entire day, and tight enough not to come off in mud and or quick sand should do fine. We usually just wear neos, but thick wools are a nice combo with them as well.


Also, how much daylight would you expect to have in November? >

If memory serves, you can expect to have a good 10+ hour day to see and hike in. We usually leave Wire Pass shortly after sunrise and easily make the 13 miles to our campsite with a couple hours to spare before we lose the light.

Enjoy!!!

Bill

First off...welcome to the group. A well organized series of questions which....as you hinted at.....might be answered....."Depends." But here is some help

Many folks here know the place well. I hope they chime in. Where are you from? Do you run hot or cold? November is a crap shoot. Usually 2 nice weeks and one cold one, with a week of whatever. No rhyme or reason to it. Unless it has stormed just before, no need for the wetsuit. Foot gear is critical. The usual for the place is a lot of wading to the knee, so having shoes that can get wet and hold up is important. There are a few different kind of shoes made specifically for this. Neo socks are great. Others swear by tightly knit wool combos. Hopefully some folks will state their preferences and why. Certainly ask again as the time nears, as someone may have gone through recently. You will not get a lot of sun in Buckskin, What is your plan? Down Buck and down Paria to Lees or up Paria to Whitehouse? This will effect recommendations on length of trip. I like the Lee Pass trailhead over the Buckskin trailhead. Shorter and more interesting. Ram

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lucinda" <marketwatcher63@...> wrote:
Hello All,
I'm new to forum and am considering a trip to Buckskin Gulch/Paria Canyon in early November. This would be my first experience with canyon hiking out west. I've been doing a lot of reading and internet research, but I thought I'd try this forum to get some "real time" information from canyoneers familiar with the area.
I know this depends a lot on the conditions at particular time of the hike but I'm wondering what the weather conditions are generally like in early November.
I'm imagining sunny days with high temps in 50s/60s and night temps in the canyon around 20 or so. Not a lot of rainfall. Is that correct?
What would be the temperature and depth of the water? I think that's my biggest concern: icy cold water and lots of it. I'm hoping the canyon will be somewhat dry after the rainy summer season.
What kind of footwear would you recommend? I like to do all my hiking in sturdy trail runners (NB 840s) but expect I would need neoprene and wool socks for warmth. Would you also recommend gaiters? Some people have even suggested a wet suit (or is that just unnecessary weight?). I'm not sure what additional gear I'd require outside of normal lightweight backpacking gear.
How many days do you think I should allow for an end-to-end hike from White House to Lee's Ferry and a diversion into Buckskin Gulch? I can comfortably handle 15-20 miles per day backpacking on hilly terrain (Colorado, Yosemite, Appalachian Mountains, etc.) but I'm not sure what to expect with canyon hiking. (I've currently set aside 7 days which, I hope, is conservative).
Also, how much daylight would you expect to have in November?
Thanks in advance for your help.
-Lucinda >

Thanks, everyone, for the great information so far! >


Many folks here know the place well. I hope they chime in. Where are you from? Do you run hot or cold?

I'm from Atlanta (have lived here most of my adult life) but grew up in Canada (makes me an "expert" in cold and snow!).

I tend to run hot (I really don't like the summers here in the South) but, unfortunately, my extremities can get cold quickly if not properly protected. The first thing to go in really cold weather is my hands, for example, although my feet seem to do okay. I love winter camping here in the South.

> What is your plan? Down Buck and down Paria to Lees or up Paria to Whitehouse? This will effect recommendations on length of trip. I like the Lee Pass trailhead over the Buckskin trailhead. Shorter and more interesting.

My plan was to start at White House, take a diversion of whatever length up into Buckskin, return, and then continue on to Lee's Ferry. From what I understand, Buckskin might be a bit questionable as to passage (adverse conditions), so I wasn't sure whether I should trust it as a means to get into and out of Paria Canyon.

Is the most interesting part of the Canyon basically over by Wrather Arch? Maybe that would justify an out and back from White House and avoid the need for a shuttle.

Thanks again, everyone.

Hi Lucinda,

Although a slow learner, a dozen trips through the Buckskin/Paria has helped me learn a few things...

First - if you need a shuttle or a base of operation....You should consider the Paria Guest Ranch ( www.pariacampground.com <http://www.pariacampground.com/> ) as a base (they're 1 mile west of the Ranger Station on 89. They have showers, horseback riding, camping, climbing wall, laundry, etc. Easton is the proprietor - tell him Kurt said "Hi" if you go. Easton might even horseback you to the seldom visited "Middle Trail" and you can enter the Buckskin THERE.

Double-check their website for their winter closing date, but on Friday & Saturday there is a TERRIFIC all-you-can-eat brisket/ribs/BBQ/cake/pie/etc. at Steve and Susan's "Paria Outpost " restaurant, which is adjacent to Eaaston's place. DO NOT miss this meal if you can help it. Again, please say "Hi" for Kurt if you go. Their website is www.paria.com <http://www.paria.com> . They can also shuttle your vehicles between Lee's Ferry or Wire Pass & White House.

Add-ons.... If you're coming from the south, there is a cool slot canyon, "Water Holes", about 5 mi. south of Page on 89.. check it out - it only takes about 1.5 hrs. to seee the upper & lower non-technical sections. There are also Soap Creek, Rider and Hot Na Na canyons to hike - all near Lees Ferry.

I prefer late October for the Paria/Buckskin hike - although a tad warm the last day-and-a-half, I think it the best compromise.

I have hiked this in June where there were zero pools and once, in October, about a week after a storm, where the cessopool was about 50" deep and the rest of the pools from ankle to waist deep. The underlying mud can be very slippery - a hiking pole can really help for balance and to gauge the depth, as one cannot see through this water.

I would suggest some lightweight fleece slippers for in camp. For the hike.... I believe that light/tennie hikers (like you are using now)are best, and would recommend gaiters, even if just the shortie type. I would consider lining the inside of my pack with a trash-compactor bag just-in-case. The regs call for a waste containment system, like wag-bags or the like. Rodents are a minute problem, but if you already have a Ratsack or other mouse proof food container, you might bring it.

Have you considered starting at the Wire Pass T/H vs. White House? The lower section of Wire Pass is beautiful, as is, of course, the whole of the Buckskin.

For after the hike Vermillion Cliffs/Lees Ferry Lodge >> http://www.leesferrylodge.com <http://www.leesferrylodge.com>



--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lucinda" <marketwatcher63@...> wrote:
Hello All,
I'm new to forum and am considering a trip to Buckskin Gulch/Paria Canyon in early November. This would be my first experience with canyon hiking out west. I've been doing a lot of reading and internet research, but I thought I'd try this forum to get some "real time" information from canyoneers familiar with the area.
I know this depends a lot on the conditions at particular time of the hike but I'm wondering what the weather conditions are generally like in early November.
I'm imagining sunny days with high temps in 50s/60s and night temps in the canyon around 20 or so. Not a lot of rainfall. Is that correct?
What would be the temperature and depth of the water? I think that's my biggest concern: icy cold water and lots of it. I'm hoping the canyon will be somewhat dry after the rainy summer season.
What kind of footwear would you recommend? I like to do all my hiking in sturdy trail runners (NB 840s) but expect I would need neoprene and wool socks for warmth. Would you also recommend gaiters? Some people have even suggested a wet suit (or is that just unnecessary weight?). I'm not sure what additional gear I'd require outside of normal lightweight backpacking gear.
How many days do you think I should allow for an end-to-end hike from White House to Lee's Ferry and a diversion into Buckskin Gulch? I can comfortably handle 15-20 miles per day backpacking on hilly terrain (Colorado, Yosemite, Appalachian Mountains, etc.) but I'm not sure what to expect with canyon hiking. (I've currently set aside 7 days which, I hope, is conservative).
Also, how much daylight would you expect to have in November?
Thanks in advance for your help.
-Lucinda >

I'll second Kurt's comments about the Paria Guest Ranch - showers and laundry come in handy and there's a nice cabin if you're tired of roughing it.

Buckskin is worth the detour. More interesting than the short section of the Paria above the confluence. Steve (from the Outpost) can shuttle you from the Guest Ranch to Wire Pass. Some June pix of Buckskin and upper Paria here: www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17752

Have fun!

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Ice" <iceaxe_us@...> wrote:
Enter at Wire Pass and do the full Buckskin. Exit out at White House or Lee's Ferry depending on how many days you want to play.

I agree on doing Buckskin, but there is a little drop in the boulders near the end. Sometimes a nasty pool too near the middle entry. Still it is the longest slot I know of and aside from those minor issues, easy walking (some slippery mud on 90 degree turns). Worth it if your comfortable getting down the short drop. How many of you in the group? All new to the experience? The best potable water is a little up Buckskin from the Paria BTW. Heading up Paria gives you a few more days to do other nice things nearby, like the Wave, if you can get a permit.

I have tentatively allocated seven days for exploring Buckskin/Paria (I figure that is conservative).

It sounds like the best plan is to enter at Wire Pass and then head south? For some reason, I thought the more scenic area was north, between White House and the confluence, but is it actually more scenic between the confluence and Lees Ferry?

Yes, I was hoping that we could finish early and then head over to Wave and grab permits if time allows.

There will be two of us going -- my boyfriend and I. We are experienced backpackers, peak baggers, etc. but this will be our first canyon experience (the closest thing we get here in the South is some gorge hopping and river wading). I'm up for this kind of thing and want to be prepared for whatever is thrown at us. I think my boyfriend is a little more nervous about extensive wading in really cold water. So I'm really focusing on how to handle the cold water.

We're going up to a gorge area in NC in a couple of weeks and will be doing some river wading, so I think I'll bring along some neo and wool socks and experiment a bit. Problem is that the water won't be nearly as cold as I'd expect it to be in AZ in November! Here we just wear sandals and the "cool" water feels great.

I think the general idea in canyoneering is that you're going to get wet anyway, but you just want to stay WARM. It makes sense that neoprene and wool clothing would work.





--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Ice" <iceaxe_us@> wrote:

Enter at Wire Pass and do the full Buckskin. Exit out at White House or Lee's Ferry depending on how many days you want to play.
I agree on doing Buckskin, but there is a little drop in the boulders near the end. Sometimes a nasty pool too near the middle entry. Still it is the longest slot I know of and aside from those minor issues, easy walking (some slippery mud on 90 degree turns). Worth it if your comfortable getting down the short drop. How many of you in the group? All new to the experience? The best potable water is a little up Buckskin from the Paria BTW. Heading up Paria gives you a few more days to do other nice things nearby, like the Wave, if you can get a permit. >

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lucinda" <marketwatcher63@...> wrote:
I have tentatively allocated seven days for exploring Buckskin/Paria (I figure that is conservative).

7 days is pretty conservative, but there is other stuff to do in the area (Coyote Buttes, etc)


It sounds like the best plan is to enter at Wire Pass and then head south? For some reason, I thought the more scenic area was north, between White House and the confluence, but is it actually more scenic between the confluence and Lees Ferry?

Wire Pass and Buckskin to the confluence is where the money is at!


Yes, I was hoping that we could finish early and then head over to Wave and grab permits if time allows.

With 7 days you should have plenty of time. Wire Pass to Lee's ferry will take 3-5 days depending on how fast you backpack.


There will be two of us going -- my boyfriend and I. We are experienced backpackers, peak baggers, etc. but this will be our first canyon experience (the closest thing we get here in the South is some gorge hopping and river wading). I'm up for this kind of thing and want to be prepared for whatever is thrown at us. I think my boyfriend is a little more nervous about extensive wading in really cold water. So I'm really focusing on how to handle the cold water.

IMO Two things should be at the top of your list: 1) Make sure no storms are predicted anywhere in the area the day before or the day you will be doing Wire Pass and Buckskin Gulch. If there is any chance of rain, abort and wait until the next day to start. 2) Make sure by the end of the day you have reached, at minimum, the confluence. Once at the confluence it is possible that a flood in the canyon is survivable. First campsites are in Buckskin where it reaches the confluence.

There are springs in Paria Canyon and a seep in Buckskin just above the confluence. However there are no springs the last 13 or so miles in Paria to Lee's Ferry. It may be advisable to try to tank up on water when you start wondering...is this the last spring I will see for 2 days?


We're going up to a gorge area in NC in a couple of weeks and will be doing some river wading, so I think I'll bring along some neo and wool socks and experiment a bit. Problem is that the water won't be nearly as cold as I'd expect it to be in AZ in November! Here we just wear sandals and the "cool" water feels great.

Here's the thing: Buckskin gets almost no sun in places. The air temp in Buckskin will be cold, the water will be VERY COLD in November. Imagine poking a hole in a frozen lake and jumping in, that's what it feels like. The good news is that it's unlikely to be more than waist deep. Plus the sections you get wet are usually fairly short, so as long as you keep moving and keep you body's motor running, you will warm up quickly. Don't take breaks when you're cold, take breaks when you're warm!

There's a small chance you will run into ice. This could make the trip very difficult and dangerous if there's alot of ice.

For the rest of the trip to Lee's Ferry, you will likely get wet only up to the knee. The first day after the confluence you will be in the water alot. Neo socks will help if you get cold easily. The rest of the days, you will be wet less often.


I think the general idea in canyoneering is that you're going to get wet anyway, but you just want to stay WARM. It makes sense that neoprene and wool clothing would work.

Your shoes will probably be shot by the end of the trip, plus you will get sand in everything you own. But you will have a great time doing it. Good socks will also help prevent blisters from constantly hiking with wet feet and socks.




--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Ice" <iceaxe_us@> wrote:


Enter at Wire Pass and do the full Buckskin. Exit out at White House or Lee's Ferry depending on how many days you want to play.

I agree on doing Buckskin, but there is a little drop in the boulders near the end. Sometimes a nasty pool too near the middle entry. Still it is the longest slot I know of and aside from those minor issues, easy walking (some slippery mud on 90 degree turns). Worth it if your comfortable getting down the short drop. How many of you in the group? All new to the experience? The best potable water is a little up Buckskin from the Paria BTW. Heading up Paria gives you a few more days to do other nice things nearby, like the Wave, if you can get a permit.
>

Sounds like the drop won't be an issue, with your experience. A bit of webbing or a short rope might help for hand line and pack lowering. Could go down Buckskin, via Wire Pass and camp near the confluence. Good water there. Spend a day heading down to Wrangler Arch and back. Next day up Paria and out. Be out early enough to transition to something else like Coyote Buttes Etc. It is scenic on Paria a bit up and down from the confluence with Buckskin. Less so at either end.

The temps the week you go will determine your comfort level. Seasonable temps and your probably fine. Cold with a storm the week before is trickier. Still manageable likely

Staying warm when wet...... Neo or wool socks. A wool hat handy. Gloves handy. Eat a lot. Keep moving. The usual methods. I would love to see the pictures of what you plan to do in North Carolina. Share them when you get back, if you can and definitely check in before heading west for Paria to get an up to date conditions report. R



--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lucinda" <marketwatcher63@...> wrote:
I have tentatively allocated seven days for exploring Buckskin/Paria (I figure that is conservative).
It sounds like the best plan is to enter at Wire Pass and then head south? For some reason, I thought the more scenic area was north, between White House and the confluence, but is it actually more scenic between the confluence and Lees Ferry?
Yes, I was hoping that we could finish early and then head over to Wave and grab permits if time allows.
There will be two of us going -- my boyfriend and I. We are experienced backpackers, peak baggers, etc. but this will be our first canyon experience (the closest thing we get here in the South is some gorge hopping and river wading). I'm up for this kind of thing and want to be prepared for whatever is thrown at us. I think my boyfriend is a little more nervous about extensive wading in really cold water. So I'm really focusing on how to handle the cold water.
We're going up to a gorge area in NC in a couple of weeks and will be doing some river wading, so I think I'll bring along some neo and wool socks and experiment a bit. Problem is that the water won't be nearly as cold as I'd expect it to be in AZ in November! Here we just wear sandals and the "cool" water feels great.
I think the general idea in canyoneering is that you're going to get wet anyway, but you just want to stay WARM. It makes sense that neoprene and wool clothing would work.


--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Ice" <iceaxe_us@> wrote:


Enter at Wire Pass and do the full Buckskin. Exit out at White House or Lee's Ferry depending on how many days you want to play.

I agree on doing Buckskin, but there is a little drop in the boulders near the end. Sometimes a nasty pool too near the middle entry. Still it is the longest slot I know of and aside from those minor issues, easy walking (some slippery mud on 90 degree turns). Worth it if your comfortable getting down the short drop. How many of you in the group? All new to the experience? The best potable water is a little up Buckskin from the Paria BTW. Heading up Paria gives you a few more days to do other nice things nearby, like the Wave, if you can get a permit.
>

Lots of good stuff said, let me add this:

I am usually an advocate of the Teko socks working against sand. But the full Paria or even Buckskin is a little much for this system. I would wear a nice neoprene sock, with maybe the Teko under it for warmth. The goal is to keep the sand away from your feet. Given the 24/7 nature of Paria sand-walking, neoprene is the only solution.

Then, you need shoes that are big enough to not cramp your toes with that much sock on. Probably a full size larger than your usual shoe. Be SURE you have a comfortable rig you can hike in the water all day. This trip is a foot-eater if you are not careful.

If the recession is not impacting your life, or spending an extra $120.00 bucks is not a big issue, or you plan on more technical canyoneering, you might want to purchase 5.10 Canyoneers (on your way through Springdale) for the trip. They work awesome for canyoneering, but not very well for anything else. They do not need to be broken in, but they do need to be fitted with your intended sock combo.

YES to camp shoes - essential! Hand lotion and a good foot-first-aid-kit also recommended.

Tom

Myself and one other partner will be attempting to rap Upper Whitewater falls, NC and Lower Whitewater Falls, SC this coming Sunday. Will let you know how it turns out.

Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "scpotter19" scpotter19@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 9:04:25 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Help Planning a Trip to Buckskin Gulch/Paria Canyon in November

 



Lucinda,

There are several good "canyons" in NC, but in N. GA there are some very nice one's also. Try Overflow Creek which helps to form the west fork of the Chataggoa river. This is a section that is great whitewater when flowing but this time of year it is nice to work your way down. I do not have my maps here with me, but the place I put in was the normal kayak put in and I took out at "3 forks". This is only about 5 miles, but plan on a long day. Several 20-40 foot water falls to by pass.

In this same area are many other creeks. The area of NC, GA & SC in the Savannah drainage is loaded with lot of challange trying to get down these creeks/rivers.

I miss getting to the slots out in Utah, but there are some intrestering problems in the southeast also.

Have fun and any questions drop me an email, it is not often I check out the Canyons group.

David

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group , "Lucinda" <marketwatcher63@...> wrote:
I have tentatively allocated seven days for exploring Buckskin/Paria (I figure that is conservative).
It sounds like the best plan is to enter at Wire Pass and then head south? For some reason, I thought the more scenic area was north, between White House and the confluence, but is it actually more scenic between the confluence and Lees Ferry?
Yes, I was hoping that we could finish early and then head over to Wave and grab permits if time allows.
There will be two of us going -- my boyfriend and I. We are experienced backpackers, peak baggers, etc. but this will be our first canyon experience (the closest thing we get here in the South is some gorge hopping and river wading). I'm up for this kind of thing and want to be prepared for whatever is thrown at us. I think my boyfriend is a little more nervous about extensive wading in really cold water. So I'm really focusing on how to handle the cold water.
We're going up to a gorge area in NC in a couple of weeks and will be doing some river wading, so I think I'll bring along some neo and wool socks and experiment a bit. Problem is that the water won't be nearly as cold as I'd expect it to be in AZ in November! Here we just wear sandals and the "cool" water feels great.
I think the general idea in canyoneering is that you're going to get wet anyway, but you just want to stay WARM. It makes sense that neoprene and wool clothing would work.


--- In Yahoo Canyons Group , "adkramoo" <adkramoo@> wrote:

--- In Yahoo Canyons Group , "Ice" <iceaxe_us@> wrote:


Enter at Wire Pass and do the full Buckskin. Exit out at White House or Lee's Ferry depending on how many days you want to play.

I agree on doing Buckskin, but there is a little drop in the boulders near the end. Sometimes a nasty pool too near the middle entry. Still it is the longest slot I know of and aside from those minor issues, easy walking (some slippery mud on 90 degree turns). Worth it if your comfortable getting down the short drop. How many of you in the group? All new to the experience? The best potable water is a little up Buckskin from the Paria BTW. Heading up Paria gives you a few more days to do other nice things nearby, like the Wave, if you can get a permit.
>