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Helicopter Overuse???

Discussion in 'Archives - Yahoo Canyons Group' started by RAM, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. RAM

    RAM Guest

    This came from Tom yesterday. Interesting. Pictures alluded to in the text below can be seen off the link to the article right below

    http://lvmpdsar.blogspot.com/2011/11/busy-thanksgiving-weekend.html



    Busy Thanksgiving Weekend Monday, November 28, 2011 Labels: Rescues

    Thanksgiving weekend is a very busy time of year for places like Red Rock Canyon, Mt. Charleston, Lake Mead, and other surrounding outdoor recreational areas. The more people that head outdoors to enjoy the 70 degree weather, the higher the potential is for rescues. This year was no exception as SAR Officers and Mountain Rescue volunteers participated in back-to-back (and sometimes simultaneous) rescues that spanned the entire Holiday weekend.

    Over the course of the weekend, Rescuers responded to an ATV crash, a climber who had fallen 30 feet, and a hiker who had broken their leg. All victims were treated at the scene, extracted from their location, and delivered to waiting ambulances. Although each of these rescues were significant, the highlights of the weekend went to a 1,000ft technical rescue in Black Velvet Canyon and the rescue of 7 teenagers from rising waters near Goldstrike Canyon.

    Black Velvet - Dream of Wild Turkeys Technical Rescue

    On Sunday morning, November 27, at 0700 hours, we began a continuation of a rescue attempt from the previous night in Black Velvet Canyon where two females became stuck between the top of the 3rd pitch and above the 2nd pitch on Dream of Wild Turkeys (5.10a). They were located approximately 500 feet off of the valley floor and were stranded because their rope had lodged itself in a crack, making it unusable.

    Pilots, Officers, and MR Volunteers attempted to access the victims on Saturday night, but due to winds, terrain, and other factors, the decision to leave them on a ledge/crack was ultimately made in order to complete the rescue in a safer and more efficient manner on Sunday. Before leaving for the night, one Officer was dropped off at the base of the cliff where voice contact was made with the climbers. It was confirmed that they were prepared to spend the remainder of the night in their current location.

    On Sunday morning, Offers and Volunteers met at the parking lot located near Black Velvet where one SAR pilot met them with the Bell 500. At 0700, the team, along with gear, were flown to an area that was approximately 500 feet above the females. The ledge that the team worked from was the closest location to land since the wall was mostly vertical. A second team was placed at the base of the canyon to act as spotters and help the rescuer reach the climbers.

    Once technical systems were set up, one rescuer was lowered to the females. Upon arrival, the rescuer assessed each climber and determined that both were medically sound. The rescuer was then lowered to the location of the rope. He was unable to free the rope, but was able to cut it in such a manner that a portion of it could still be used. The rescuer was then raised back to the climbers where he helped them rappell back down to the valley floor. As the climbers moved from one belay station to the next, the rescuer was lowered alongside each of them. Once all members had reached the ground, the officer and 2 climbers hiked out of the canyon.

    Sauna Cave - Goldstrike Canyon Huey Extraction

    On Sunday, November 27th at approximately 1830 hours, a call came in regarding 7 teenagers that were north of Gold Strike Canyon in Sauna Cave.

    They were able to walk to the cave prior to the dam releasing water causing the river to rise and cover the area that they had walked.

    After the water subsided, it was too dark for them to feel comfortable to walk back. Aside from being scared, one of the girls had fallen in the river and became cold causing her to not want to walk back.

    One Officer and one volunteer flew from the hangar in the Huey. On their way to Goldstrike, they landed and picked up one Officer in Boulder City since it was faster for him to drive there than back to the hangar.

    Once the rescue crew was on board, they flew to the Colorado River near the mouth of Gold Strike canyon using Night Vision Goggles (NVGs). The victims were located by flashlights that they had turned on.

    Crews landed 100 yards downriver from them on a sandbar where one Officer and one volunteer were dropped off. After making their way to the victims and insuring that no one was injured, an extraction plan was put in place. The first group contained 4 victims while the second group consisted of 3. Although some of the members complained of being cold, all 7 victims were uninjured and safely extracted from the area.

    Rescue crews weren't able to capture pictures on all of the rescues, but were able to snap some shots of the 1,000 ft. Black Velvet rescue.

    This picture was taken from the ledge that the team worked from. The rescuer was lowered from this location to the stranded climbers.

    The LZ for this rescue was very tight. Our Chief Pilot successfully deposited and extracted rescuers and gear from this location. The Officer seen in this photo is guiding the pilot into a one-skid landing.

    This is a view of the edge. The volunteer in this photo was the edge-person who was responsible for all communication between the rescuer and system operation team.

    This is a snapshot from the edge-person's point of view looking up towards technical operations. The team managing the main-line can be seen here. The team managing belay are located on the left side of the picture, just out of sight.

    Four volunteers and two officers managed technical operations above the stranded hikers. Here's the team in all of their glory. The team was happy knowing that the climbers could be safely extracted, were able to survive the chilly evening on the rock, and walked away with no injuries.
  2. I am wondering why that particular heading was used for this post? Maybe it is not obvious to those of you who don't live in LV, but it is SOP to use the Bell helicopter for insertion of rescue crews throughout the LV valley. Quick, clean and safe (one skid landings are about the only way to get the crews on the ground, especially in Rec Rock Canyon. (Ted Wring and I can attest to the one ski landing as we were extracted from Ice Cube Canyon back in 2010 after we stuck a rope in a crack, very similar to the climbing rescue situation.

    bruce from bryce p.s. I have a vested interest in this as I have submitted my volunteer application to the SAR and Mt Rescue teams of the LVMPD. I'll be waiting to see if they can use me.

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "RAM" <adkramoo@...> wrote:
    This came from Tom yesterday. Interesting. Pictures alluded to in the text below can be seen off the link to the article right below
    http://lvmpdsar.blogspot.com/2011/11/busy-thanksgiving-weekend.html

    > Busy Thanksgiving Weekend > Monday, November 28, 2011 Labels: Rescues
    Thanksgiving weekend is a very busy time of year for places like Red Rock Canyon, Mt. Charleston, Lake Mead, and other surrounding outdoor recreational areas. The more people that head outdoors to enjoy the 70 degree weather, the higher the potential is for rescues. This year was no exception as SAR Officers and Mountain Rescue volunteers participated in back-to-back (and sometimes simultaneous) rescues that spanned the entire Holiday weekend.
    Over the course of the weekend, Rescuers responded to an ATV crash, a climber who had fallen 30 feet, and a hiker who had broken their leg. All victims were treated at the scene, extracted from their location, and delivered to waiting ambulances. Although each of these rescues were significant, the highlights of the weekend went to a 1,000ft technical rescue in Black Velvet Canyon and the rescue of 7 teenagers from rising waters near Goldstrike Canyon.
    Black Velvet - Dream of Wild Turkeys Technical Rescue
    On Sunday morning, November 27, at 0700 hours, we began a continuation of a rescue attempt from the previous night in Black Velvet Canyon where two females became stuck between the top of the 3rd pitch and above the 2nd pitch on Dream of Wild Turkeys (5.10a). They were located approximately 500 feet off of the valley floor and were stranded because their rope had lodged itself in a crack, making it unusable.
    Pilots, Officers, and MR Volunteers attempted to access the victims on Saturday night, but due to winds, terrain, and other factors, the decision to leave them on a ledge/crack was ultimately made in order to complete the rescue in a safer and more efficient manner on Sunday. Before leaving for the night, one Officer was dropped off at the base of the cliff where voice contact was made with the climbers. It was confirmed that they were prepared to spend the remainder of the night in their current location.
    On Sunday morning, Offers and Volunteers met at the parking lot located near Black Velvet where one SAR pilot met them with the Bell 500. At 0700, the team, along with gear, were flown to an area that was approximately 500 feet above the females. The ledge that the team worked from was the closest location to land since the wall was mostly vertical. A second team was placed at the base of the canyon to act as spotters and help the rescuer reach the climbers.
    Once technical systems were set up, one rescuer was lowered to the females. Upon arrival, the rescuer assessed each climber and determined that both were medically sound. The rescuer was then lowered to the location of the rope. He was unable to free the rope, but was able to cut it in such a manner that a portion of it could still be used. The rescuer was then raised back to the climbers where he helped them rappell back down to the valley floor. As the climbers moved from one belay station to the next, the rescuer was lowered alongside each of them. Once all members had reached the ground, the officer and 2 climbers hiked out of the canyon.
    Sauna Cave - Goldstrike Canyon Huey Extraction
    On Sunday, November 27th at approximately 1830 hours, a call came in regarding 7 teenagers that were north of Gold Strike Canyon in Sauna Cave.
    They were able to walk to the cave prior to the dam releasing water causing the river to rise and cover the area that they had walked.
    After the water subsided, it was too dark for them to feel comfortable to walk back. Aside from being scared, one of the girls had fallen in the river and became cold causing her to not want to walk back.
    One Officer and one volunteer flew from the hangar in the Huey. On their way to Goldstrike, they landed and picked up one Officer in Boulder City since it was faster for him to drive there than back to the hangar.
    Once the rescue crew was on board, they flew to the Colorado River near the mouth of Gold Strike canyon using Night Vision Goggles (NVGs). The victims were located by flashlights that they had turned on.
    Crews landed 100 yards downriver from them on a sandbar where one Officer and one volunteer were dropped off. After making their way to the victims and insuring that no one was injured, an extraction plan was put in place. The first group contained 4 victims while the second group consisted of 3. Although some of the members complained of being cold, all 7 victims were uninjured and safely extracted from the area.
    Rescue crews weren't able to capture pictures on all of the rescues, but were able to snap some shots of the 1,000 ft. Black Velvet rescue.
    This picture was taken from the ledge that the team worked from. The rescuer was lowered from this location to the stranded climbers.
    > The LZ for this rescue was very tight. Our Chief Pilot successfully deposited and extracted rescuers and gear from this location. The Officer seen in this photo is guiding the pilot into a one-skid landing.
    > This is a view of the edge. The volunteer in this photo was the edge-person who was responsible for all communication between the rescuer and system operation team.
    > This is a snapshot from the edge-person's point of view looking up towards technical operations. The team managing the main-line can be seen here. The team managing belay are located on the left side of the picture, just out of sight.
    > Four volunteers and two officers managed technical operations above the stranded hikers. Here's the team in all of their glory. The team was happy knowing that the climbers could be safely extracted, were able to survive the chilly evening on the rock, and walked away with no injuries. >
  3. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    Some discussion lately about overuse of helicopters in SAR. These seem like two clear examples of that. Helicopters are expensive and dangerous. OUR tax dollars pay for them, even if they do not get charged to your medical insurance, or to you directly. Standard rate mfor medical heli use is $9,000 lift off fee. Did you and Ted chip in 5k each for your folly, or did the rest of us pay for that?

    Climbers stuck on Yellow Brick Road? Within cell phone range? - call the best climbers you know and have them drive out and climb three pitches of 5.10 by headlamp, give em 100$ for their trouble.

    Kids benighted on the river? Wait for daylight, walk out on their own.

    Helicopters are a great, very useful SAR tool. Can be used effectively, when needed. Can simplify S's and R's, and save lives. But, they are expensive and crash from time to time. Should be used where needed. Should not be used when cheaper alternatives work just as well.

    It's a Fetish.

    http://scaredyfish.com/2011/07/10/do-you-have-a-helicopter-fetish/

    http://www.wftv.com/news/news/medical-helicopter-trips-cost-patients-thousands/nD9rq/

    http://www.jems.com/article/vehicle-ops/reducing-inappropriate-helicop

    http://www.watchdognation.com/blog/helicopter-ambulances-medical-bills/

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@...> wrote:
    I am wondering why that particular heading was used for this post? Maybe it is not obvious to those of you who don't live in LV, but it is SOP to use the Bell helicopter for insertion of rescue crews throughout the LV valley. Quick, clean and safe (one skid landings are about the only way to get the crews on the ground, especially in Rec Rock Canyon. (Ted Wring and I can attest to the one ski landing as we were extracted from Ice Cube Canyon back in 2010 after we stuck a rope in a crack, very similar to the climbing rescue situation.
    bruce from bryce > p.s. I have a vested interest in this as I have submitted my volunteer application to the SAR and Mt Rescue teams of the LVMPD. I'll be waiting to see if they can use me. >
  4. 1. No we did not! Our stupidity put us there and it does appear that there was a way out - kinda dangerous but doable, I guess.

    2. Don't know nothing about Yellow Brick Road except for that they are the best cover band in Las Vegas.

    3. Totally agree with you on this but I bet their mommies and daddies were worried sick. Probably most of the adults had no idea where there kids were. NOTE: didn't know that there was a large water release out of Lake Mead. Thought we were saving that for the middle of the summer. Oh, don't want to cover up the bathtub ring.

    4. Tom, you have to have alternative to those fetishes!

    bruce from bryce

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    Some discussion lately about overuse of helicopters in SAR. These seem like two clear examples of that. Helicopters are expensive and dangerous. OUR tax dollars pay for them, even if they do not get charged to your medical insurance, or to you directly. Standard rate mfor medical heli use is $9,000 lift off fee. Did you and Ted chip in 5k each for your folly, or did the rest of us pay for that?
    Climbers stuck on Yellow Brick Road? Within cell phone range? - call the best climbers you know and have them drive out and climb three pitches of 5.10 by headlamp, give em 100$ for their trouble.
    Kids benighted on the river? Wait for daylight, walk out on their own.
    Helicopters are a great, very useful SAR tool. Can be used effectively, when needed. Can simplify S's and R's, and save lives. But, they are expensive and crash from time to time. Should be used where needed. Should not be used when cheaper alternatives work just as well.
    It's a Fetish.
    http://scaredyfish.com/2011/07/10/do-you-have-a-helicopter-fetish/
    > http://www.wftv.com/news/news/medical-helicopter-trips-cost-patients-thousands/nD9rq/
    > http://www.jems.com/article/vehicle-ops/reducing-inappropriate-helicop
    > http://www.watchdognation.com/blog/helicopter-ambulances-medical-bills/
    > Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@> wrote:

    I am wondering why that particular heading was used for this post? Maybe it is not obvious to those of you who don't live in LV, but it is SOP to use the Bell helicopter for insertion of rescue crews throughout the LV valley. Quick, clean and safe (one skid landings are about the only way to get the crews on the ground, especially in Rec Rock Canyon. (Ted Wring and I can attest to the one ski landing as we were extracted from Ice Cube Canyon back in 2010 after we stuck a rope in a crack, very similar to the climbing rescue situation.

    bruce from bryce
    p.s. I have a vested interest in this as I have submitted my volunteer application to the SAR and Mt Rescue teams of the LVMPD. I'll be waiting to see if they can use me.
    >
  5. TomJones

    TomJones Guest

    "Large water release" is a relative thing. Could have been not really very much.

    Yellow Brick Road is a variation to Dream of Wild Turkeys.

    I hope their mommies and daddies pitched in 10k to pay for the heli. Doubtful, though.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@...> wrote:
    1. No we did not! Our stupidity put us there and it does appear that there was a way out - kinda dangerous but doable, I guess.
    2. Don't know nothing about Yellow Brick Road except for that they are the best cover band in Las Vegas.
    3. Totally agree with you on this but I bet their mommies and daddies were worried sick. Probably most of the adults had no idea where there kids were. NOTE: didn't know that there was a large water release out of Lake Mead. Thought we were saving that for the middle of the summer. Oh, don't want to cover up the bathtub ring.
    4. Tom, you have to have alternative to those fetishes!
    bruce from bryce
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:

    Some discussion lately about overuse of helicopters in SAR. These seem like two clear examples of that. Helicopters are expensive and dangerous. OUR tax dollars pay for them, even if they do not get charged to your medical insurance, or to you directly. Standard rate mfor medical heli use is $9,000 lift off fee. Did you and Ted chip in 5k each for your folly, or did the rest of us pay for that?

    Climbers stuck on Yellow Brick Road? Within cell phone range? - call the best climbers you know and have them drive out and climb three pitches of 5.10 by headlamp, give em 100$ for their trouble.

    Kids benighted on the river? Wait for daylight, walk out on their own.

    Helicopters are a great, very useful SAR tool. Can be used effectively, when needed. Can simplify S's and R's, and save lives. But, they are expensive and crash from time to time. Should be used where needed. Should not be used when cheaper alternatives work just as well.

    It's a Fetish.

    http://scaredyfish.com/2011/07/10/do-you-have-a-helicopter-fetish/

    > http://www.wftv.com/news/news/medical-helicopter-trips-cost-patients-thousands/nD9rq/

    > http://www.jems.com/article/vehicle-ops/reducing-inappropriate-helicop

    > http://www.watchdognation.com/blog/helicopter-ambulances-medical-bills/

    > Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@> wrote:


    I am wondering why that particular heading was used for this post? Maybe it is not obvious to those of you who don't live in LV, but it is SOP to use the Bell helicopter for insertion of rescue crews throughout the LV valley. Quick, clean and safe (one skid landings are about the only way to get the crews on the ground, especially in Rec Rock Canyon. (Ted Wring and I can attest to the one ski landing as we were extracted from Ice Cube Canyon back in 2010 after we stuck a rope in a crack, very similar to the climbing rescue situation.


    bruce from bryce
    > p.s. I have a vested interest in this as I have submitted my volunteer application to the SAR and Mt Rescue teams of the LVMPD. I'll be waiting to see if they can use me.
  6. Lori

    Lori Guest

    These SAR folks here in Las Vegas are awesome professionals, and almost 100% volunteer rescuer labor. They use as many of these easy hauls for training their newest volunteers (thank you Bruce!) as are available, so they are not out there inventing situations for rescue training.

    My recent visit to their facility left me with the feeling that if I were to ever need a rescue, I'd want them making that determination and that rescue, and that they would certainly have the right skill set, expertise, equipment and can-do attitude to get me or anyone I am with out safely and effectively.

    They are part of the police department as well, trained officers of the law and are called upon daily to work with ground officers in Law Enforcement.

    I love these guys and love that they are out there picking up kids and grandmothers, and canyoneers, and ATV'ers and criminals.

    :)

    Lori C







    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@...> wrote:
    "Large water release" is a relative thing. Could have been not really very much.
    Yellow Brick Road is a variation to Dream of Wild Turkeys.
    I hope their mommies and daddies pitched in 10k to pay for the heli. Doubtful, though.
    Tom
    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@> wrote:

    1. No we did not! Our stupidity put us there and it does appear that there was a way out - kinda dangerous but doable, I guess.

    2. Don't know nothing about Yellow Brick Road except for that they are the best cover band in Las Vegas.

    3. Totally agree with you on this but I bet their mommies and daddies were worried sick. Probably most of the adults had no idea where there kids were. NOTE: didn't know that there was a large water release out of Lake Mead. Thought we were saving that for the middle of the summer. Oh, don't want to cover up the bathtub ring.

    4. Tom, you have to have alternative to those fetishes!

    bruce from bryce

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:


    Some discussion lately about overuse of helicopters in SAR. These seem like two clear examples of that. Helicopters are expensive and dangerous. OUR tax dollars pay for them, even if they do not get charged to your medical insurance, or to you directly. Standard rate mfor medical heli use is $9,000 lift off fee. Did you and Ted chip in 5k each for your folly, or did the rest of us pay for that?


    Climbers stuck on Yellow Brick Road? Within cell phone range? - call the best climbers you know and have them drive out and climb three pitches of 5.10 by headlamp, give em 100$ for their trouble.


    Kids benighted on the river? Wait for daylight, walk out on their own.


    Helicopters are a great, very useful SAR tool. Can be used effectively, when needed. Can simplify S's and R's, and save lives. But, they are expensive and crash from time to time. Should be used where needed. Should not be used when cheaper alternatives work just as well.


    It's a Fetish.


    http://scaredyfish.com/2011/07/10/do-you-have-a-helicopter-fetish/


    > http://www.wftv.com/news/news/medical-helicopter-trips-cost-patients-thousands/nD9rq/


    > http://www.jems.com/article/vehicle-ops/reducing-inappropriate-helicop


    > http://www.watchdognation.com/blog/helicopter-ambulances-medical-bills/


    > Tom


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@> wrote:



    I am wondering why that particular heading was used for this post? Maybe it is not obvious to those of you who don't live in LV, but it is SOP to use the Bell helicopter for insertion of rescue crews throughout the LV valley. Quick, clean and safe (one skid landings are about the only way to get the crews on the ground, especially in Rec Rock Canyon. (Ted Wring and I can attest to the one ski landing as we were extracted from Ice Cube Canyon back in 2010 after we stuck a rope in a crack, very similar to the climbing rescue situation.



    bruce from bryce

    p.s. I have a vested interest in this as I have submitted my volunteer application to the SAR and Mt Rescue teams of the LVMPD. I'll be waiting to see if they can use me.
  7. phil

    phil Guest

    The roll of hindsight is important in these case evaluations.

    The only one that seems possibly "overuse" is the teenagers along the river. In hindsight it seems they were facing discomfort, not life-threatening injury. On the other hand, they were obviously poorly educated about their endeavor and could have made further deadly mistakes without such SAR interference. The story mentioned one person fell into the water and suffered because of it. What desperate attempts would such individuals have made without immediate rescue? Black Canyon can be benign but also has nasty whirlpools and hydraulics. Alternate exits were limited in that area.

    I for one believe helicopters are way overused. I am also of the persuasion that SAR is way overused. But without a change in policy that is well-advertised in advance then we can't expect any major changes. I would love to see more people stuck to their own devices in the backcountry (even if that means death); but we aren't their yet.

    On the financial side, I just paid 1k for an ambulance ride because the ambulance was "out of network" (the insurance has the gaul to remind to shop around first; in an emergency?). The hospital called Life Flight as a backup because we were so far into BFE. I made the call not to use the helicopter because it is such a fundamentally important resource, which I didn't think I qualified for. On the other hand, the insurance say my bill would have been less if I had use the helicopter instead of an ambulance. If I had known I could get a scenic helicopter ride (tongue in cheek) and also have saved myself a grand I may have done it. So, its not as black and white as it used to be.

    Phillip

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "Lori" <loricadventurer@...> wrote:
    These SAR folks here in Las Vegas are awesome professionals, and almost 100% volunteer rescuer labor. They use as many of these easy hauls for training their newest volunteers (thank you Bruce!) as are available, so they are not out there inventing situations for rescue training.
    My recent visit to their facility left me with the feeling that if I were to ever need a rescue, I'd want them making that determination and that rescue, and that they would certainly have the right skill set, expertise, equipment and can-do attitude to get me or anyone I am with out safely and effectively.
    They are part of the police department as well, trained officers of the law and are called upon daily to work with ground officers in Law Enforcement.
    I love these guys and love that they are out there picking up kids and grandmothers, and canyoneers, and ATV'ers and criminals.
    :)
    Lori C



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:

    "Large water release" is a relative thing. Could have been not really very much.

    Yellow Brick Road is a variation to Dream of Wild Turkeys.

    I hope their mommies and daddies pitched in 10k to pay for the heli. Doubtful, though.

    Tom

    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@> wrote:


    1. No we did not! Our stupidity put us there and it does appear that there was a way out - kinda dangerous but doable, I guess.


    2. Don't know nothing about Yellow Brick Road except for that they are the best cover band in Las Vegas.


    3. Totally agree with you on this but I bet their mommies and daddies were worried sick. Probably most of the adults had no idea where there kids were. NOTE: didn't know that there was a large water release out of Lake Mead. Thought we were saving that for the middle of the summer. Oh, don't want to cover up the bathtub ring.


    4. Tom, you have to have alternative to those fetishes!


    bruce from bryce


    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "TomJones" <ratagonia@> wrote:



    Some discussion lately about overuse of helicopters in SAR. These seem like two clear examples of that. Helicopters are expensive and dangerous. OUR tax dollars pay for them, even if they do not get charged to your medical insurance, or to you directly. Standard rate mfor medical heli use is $9,000 lift off fee. Did you and Ted chip in 5k each for your folly, or did the rest of us pay for that?



    Climbers stuck on Yellow Brick Road? Within cell phone range? - call the best climbers you know and have them drive out and climb three pitches of 5.10 by headlamp, give em 100$ for their trouble.



    Kids benighted on the river? Wait for daylight, walk out on their own.



    Helicopters are a great, very useful SAR tool. Can be used effectively, when needed. Can simplify S's and R's, and save lives. But, they are expensive and crash from time to time. Should be used where needed. Should not be used when cheaper alternatives work just as well.



    It's a Fetish.



    http://scaredyfish.com/2011/07/10/do-you-have-a-helicopter-fetish/



    > http://www.wftv.com/news/news/medical-helicopter-trips-cost-patients-thousands/nD9rq/



    > http://www.jems.com/article/vehicle-ops/reducing-inappropriate-helicop



    > http://www.watchdognation.com/blog/helicopter-ambulances-medical-bills/



    > Tom



    --- In Yahoo Canyons Group, "bsilliman2001" <weabruce@> wrote:




    I am wondering why that particular heading was used for this post? Maybe it is not obvious to those of you who don't live in LV, but it is SOP to use the Bell helicopter for insertion of rescue crews throughout the LV valley. Quick, clean and safe (one skid landings are about the only way to get the crews on the ground, especially in Rec Rock Canyon. (Ted Wring and I can attest to the one ski landing as we were extracted from Ice Cube Canyon back in 2010 after we stuck a rope in a crack, very similar to the climbing rescue situation.




    bruce from bryce

    > p.s. I have a vested interest in this as I have submitted my volunteer application to the SAR and Mt Rescue teams of the LVMPD. I'll be waiting to see if they can use me.






    >
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