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Guide bullying in Escalante?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by wisconnyjohnny, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. wisconnyjohnny

    wisconnyjohnny Lagargar pockets

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    Escalante
    Has anyone else ever experienced accusatory police visits because they played thru a tour in a guided canyon in Escalante. I was threatened with charges yesterday for illegally guiding one specific canyon in the area. Allegedly the source and the proof are sound so I said to the cop “bring it” to which he replied “ I have the proof”
    And again I said “bring it” and he didn’t bring nothing but told me to stay outta the canyons.! Albeit no injunction in place or anything to prevent me from utilizing my public lands. I went out twice with friends last month and passed up the local guide service with cordial hellos. Obviously after yesterday I assume they must not enjoy a carefree Utah newbie who’s willing to show people the goods for free. After all they assume I’m taking money outta their pockets. Couldn’t be further from the truth. I seem to recall last year the guide service chastising people rappelling into
    Micro death because they were doing a “meet up” I recall this because I was there.
    I’m not going away and I’m gonna keep doing the canyons I wanna do whether I see a tour truck there or not.
    Complaint will be filed with Kanab. With the collusion of guide service and law enforcement and a 10-20 year history of attempting to intimidate by made up charges and threats.
    Word is their is a history of this tactic in the area.
    Thoughts!?
    Being the bigger person here I’m not naming the guide service. If you have had an issue feel free to. 8DE3416D-FAB4-404E-BB14-A9F5E71D9776.
    EvergreenDean likes this.
  2. Brian in SLC

    Brian in SLC Brian in SLC

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    The devil's in the details....?

    Why not start naming names? What police department? What guide service? Shine a light on this. They're obviously not playing well with you. Maybe its time to not play well with them. Find out when their permit is up for renewal. File some formal complaints especially through a law office if you know someone willing.

    I run into guides all the time locally. And, if they're doing something I don't agree with, a comment is made to the land manager and their front office. Usually they're pretty good about dealing with us "general public" folks for the most part. And, when they screw up, they get pretty hammered on.

    A few years back, at an alpine club event up at Snowbird...I carpool with a friend who's a bit of a letter writer and doesn't cotton to not playing well with guides. He'd had some words with a guide in the Tetons. He wrote the park service and copied the department of interior folks as well (I seem to recall). The issue must have got some traction... We walk in the door, and, one of the guide service owners walks straight up and says, "F*&% you" to my homeboy with the sheepish grin. Was pretty funny.

    Anyhoo....
  3. hank moon

    hank moon lovely ligatures

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    1. AFAIK there is only one guide service with 10-20 yrs history in Escalante, so you've pretty much identified your target.
    2. Not naming the target of slander / innuendo is not being a "bigger person" - in most cases it's simply a cheap liability shield. Not-naming keeps this post squarely in the realm of smear tactics.
    3. You have presented no evidence that a guide service is behind the cop's actions.

    At a minimum, I suggest changing the thread title to "Police Bullying" as the Guide angle has no substance. If you plan to lodge a complaint, it should be against the police, not any guide service. All that said, sounds like a crappy experience - I'd be pissed as well.

    hank
  4. wisconnyjohnny

    wisconnyjohnny Lagargar pockets

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    You have a point on the innuendo haha! So let me elaborate.
    On two occasions over the past 7 weeks I took two separate friends thru a canyon and each time we passed the local guide service. The cop yesterday mentioned the canyon by name and like I said I only passed the guide service in there on two occasions. So I know it’s THAT. Guide service.
    Did send a email to director this morning. On options for complaints against local law enforcement for the unfounded threats and showing up to my work.
  5. wisconnyjohnny

    wisconnyjohnny Lagargar pockets

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  6. UtahNich

    UtahNich

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    This post makes me curious - does anyone know what is legally considered "guiding"?

    I would imagine the two main parts of the definition would be an exchange of money and an acceptance of liability, but that's just a guess. If anyone knows the formal definition, I'd be very interested to hear it.
  7. Canyonero

    Canyonero

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    At least being paid would seem to be required. Otherwise, it's a group of friends.
  8. scottensign

    scottensign

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    I had a real bad experience with an Escalante cop in 2012 I was taking a group of scouts to do Coyote Gulch. Saw the cop with someone pulled over as we came into Escalante. Made a mental note not to speed. Stopped at the visitor center and then for gas. On way out, he pulled me over for "speeding". I know for a fact I was not speeding. I had another leader I was following who was also going the limit. His comment was, "I saw you speeding coming into town, and knew I was going to get you going out". When I told him I was going to contest the ticket, he told me he was going to add another 10 over to the ticket.
    We stopped our three cars to talk it over after he let me go. He came up and jumped in and refused to leave before we all got in our cars again. Just stood there and watched us talking.
    Not sure if it was the chief who was fired for filing false reports, but it could have been. would fit the pattern:
    https://www.thespectrum.com/story/n...te-police-chief-face-trial-felonies/84291658/
    Still pissed about this 6 years later.
  9. ratagonia

    ratagonia

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    Accepting money IS an acceptance of liability, and is the definition of guiding. From an LE point of view, the exchange of money is the crime.

    Tom
    wisconnyjohnny likes this.
  10. wisconnyjohnny

    wisconnyjohnny Lagargar pockets

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    I was gonna go talk to the guide specifically but figured I’d banter on here and let him read it himself. Obviously he’s in the dark chasing this notion. Just in case something comes of this I have my ducks in a row. There never was any dark parking lot money exchange. Lols
    I will ad that the cop accused me of working my job as a front to meet people to illegally guide. Hahahaha! Canyon mafia stemming minions 435
    Wasn’t accused of guiding this guy however. Took him to a new canyon. Hmmmmmm
    8B1245B6-3DB1-43F0-A6A6-2A39AD096B4E.
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